AN ESSAY ON THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
One belief the Tea Baggers and the rest of the rag tag Radical Right share is the belief in Jesus. I warrant that virtually every one of them, if asked [or not] will tell you that they are “saved.” As we watch them protest and demonstrate one will have a hard time finding the forgiveness and compassion that is most often attributed to the persona of the Son of God. If you look at the signs they carry you will see clearly the rabid racism simmering just below the surface and disguised in the clothes of God and religion. During those long dark years of George Bush, our government was infected with religious mania, with many suspecting that religion was actually the motivator for the Iraq war. People with degrees from Billy Bob’s Bible University occupied high office and made decisions that reverberated across the nation. It was a dark and desperate time indeed and I am afraid that not all of the Bible Bangers have been scrubbed from the halls of Congress.
The separation of church and state is one of the most debated issues on the political scene, though it is rarely labeled as such. In fact, it seems more like the debate is over how far religion CAN be integrated into political matters. Check your premises- how many religious symbols or pro-religion ideas can you find in the things around you that are related to the government? Look at any unit of currency- each adamantly declares, “IN GOD WE TRUST”. Even more importantly, how can an organization identified as the “Religious Right” even EXIST in politics?
Also, religion (again, specifically Christianity) is pro-life, which means that abortion is another great sin. Of course, this removes another right- the right to be able to have sex without risk of becoming pregnant, for that pregnancy can be reversed- from women. Furthermore religion places limits on sex itself and judges those who would engage in this most natural of human acts. Under no circumstances is Christianity or other religions benevolent toward man.
The Founding Fathers, when framing the Constitution, had a clear idea of the country they wanted to exist. “Freedom” was the driving force behind them and they realized that any integration of church and state was INIMICAL to freedom. Note the ambiguous use of the word “church”. Quite obviously, the Founding Fathers knew quite well that any theology, no matter what the religion, discriminates against, attacks, and, in a lot of cases, ignores other religions. Such controversy is only generated in one of two ways: Two forces in opposition are clashing, or, varying ideas on the same theme are clashing in the pursuit of a common goal. It obviously cannot be the first.
Every “church” believes in some variation of a god. The Romans, Greeks, Muslims, Egyptians, Taoists, Catholics, Hindus, Christians, and Jews all believe in any number of gods or goddesses. But all of these deities has numerous things in common. For one, these gods all work in mysterious ways, are unknowable, and that we are living because of them and for them. Nonsense! Think, if you will, about the following:
1. Most of the discrimination that exists today stems from religious beliefs. The best example is the Ku Klux Klan and other such hate groups. These organizations are steeped in Christianity and its symbols. The members of these groups fail to see the contradiction.
2. Most Christians attempt to “convert” everyone with whom they come in contact. Also, it should be noted, the Bible explicitly denies anyone who follows Christian beliefs to associate with atheists— outright religious profiling.
3. Who are the loudest voices against gay rights? That’s easy: the Religious Right!
4. The larger a religion gets, the more oppressive it becomes. One anti-religion or Jesus statement on the radio is adequate grounds for a religious organization to boycott and file suit against that radio station.
5. The ultimate goal of the Religious Right is complete control over the government, starting with the executive branch (Bush) and extending to the legislative and judicial branches.
For a good example of the horror and fear that would come from a theocracy as Christians want it, read The Crucible by Arthur Miller.
The separation of church and state is the only way society can truly be free. That an organization identified as the “Religious Right” can exist in politics is an outrage and totally opposes the separation that the Founding Fathers had in mind. The only [non] belief that should be allowed to exist in the state- and therefore promote the true laissez-faire spirit is atheism, which is not a religion at all and poses no threat to the freedoms of the land.
I don’t suggest that atheism is the be all and end all when casting about for a solution to this curious conundrum. I only ask that religion be kept out of government. I ask that prayer be prohibited at formal cabinet functions, the “In God We Trust” logo be removed from the dollar bill, and that politicians and political functionaries operate under rules which prevent them from mixing god and government. Jesus belongs in his house, the church, not in mine, the government….MM
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God is an America?…mmmm…I feel a post coming on….
You think seperating church and state is important I’d advise you never to live in an Islamic country.
That’s their plans for the UK you know…ultimately. Not scare mongering. It’s perfectly clear and admitted by most muslims over here. A muslim Labour MP and Minister went as far as to publically state he can’t wait for the day when ‘Someone who shares my faith is in Number 10′
oh dear….
Dinners what is happening in England and France is even more frightening than what is happening here. The Muslims have made it clear that they want complete world conquest. They are every bit as dangerous, if not more, than our religious nutters.
They have enough followers world wide to accomplish the goal…. however; the majority of today’s Muslims actually do NOT want to live in a society that is under theocracy. Many prefer the free societies of western Europe and N. America. Its true.
Religious nutters are religious nutters no matter what faith they cling to. The Muslim population of Britain is 2.7% of the population and in France 6% HERE. They are heard because they are vocal, for the most part they live in the poorest, post-industrial towns and the most run down areas of big cities, they are breeding faster than the white population and that scares the natives into believing some next week they will be the minority in their own country. Having active Muslim jihadists living in your midst can be a little disconcerting and I am sure it’s happening in the UK and France, but they are just a bunch of criminal, religious nutters who are threatening everybody’s freedom and should be treated as such. The religious nutjobs in the USA number in the 10s of millions, they worry me because of their significant numbers and they live everywhere, rich and poor neighborhoods in every State. To get to the point of your post, separation of Church and State is paramount to freedom, take that away, we would be living in a very oppressive society.
Holte I read somewhere that there are something like 88% of Americans who consider themselves Christians. I have no problem with that except a large percentage of that percentage is made up of these nutty Evangelicals.
Mike, my friend and Don Quixote fellow traveler, we must apply the age old “Rational Man” theory here to understand this phenomenon. This is because those of religious faith have left rationality out of their lives. Religious deities had absorb the minds of most people of most cultures long before this country was ever thought to exist. Even the Native Americans looked to various Gods to explain why things happened. A rational thought would conclude that if one truly believes in ones religion all other beliefs, by default, are wrong. Those who are wrong must be either converted or eliminated in order to have the perfect world that their God wishes to have. I know, it is a bit “stepford” like but it is so. While there does seem to be a few faiths that do not call for conquering the world population (Bahia’ for example) they are not the most prominent. So, those of us who are rational beings must accept the fact that the true believers are simply behaving the way we should expect them to behave. All knowing, all seeing, and all goodness. Even those who do not necessarily always follow all the rules of the faith are behaving normally by pushing their agenda. Remember, they can pray and be forgiven for their sins. We can’t, we have to take responsibility for our behavior because we have no specific entity to whom we can hand our missteps.
As I have often posted on MMA, I fully believe that it has to be idiots and/or fools who think that a mere mortal could possibly have any concept whatsoever of what God could be, or think, or believe, or want, should their actually be such a deity. I for one am uncertain, and I think I am at least as smart as the average yo yo who is certain. The difference the average yo yo is placing his/her faith in traditions/folklore/stories/and speculations of people who, for one reason or another, had a vested interest in controlling peoples minds and behavior.
Bill writes:
“I fully believe that it has to be idiots and/or fools who think that a mere mortal could possibly have any concept whatsoever of what God could be, or think, or believe, or want, should their actually be such a deity.”
Yes! Yes! Yes!
Good post.
Four Dinners and Holte Ender, I have been following the issue of Islam in western Europe closely for quite some time. I think the danger is actually receding — see this post, which has links to more info on the subject. The birth rates of Muslim populations in Europe are coming into line with those of the natives, and many are becoming culturally assimilated. The hard-liners are a shrinking minority. They may well become more violent and dangerous as this process continues, but the risk that they could actually become dominant seems to have passed.
A similar process is happening in the US. The figure of 88% for self-proclaimed US Christians was probably true as recently as a decade ago, but atheists and agnostics are now 15% of the population (the number has doubled since 2000) and are the fastest-growing “religious” category. The Christian Right is shrinking, but becoming more radical and dangerous as it sees the prospect of taking over slipping from its grasp. The 2006 and 2008 elections were a turning point, when the party dominated by the Christian Right lost power to the much more secular Democrats (note that “secular” doesn’t necessarily mean atheist).
I expect to see a rising wave of Christian terrorism in the US over the next few years — reaching to actions worse than Oklahoma City and possibly worse than 9/11 — but I no longer worry that they will succeed in taking over.
There are other battlegrounds in this struggle, of course. Abortion, gay rights, infiltrating lies about evolution and US history into school textbooks (there was an earlier post here about that) — all these things are battlefields in the struggle against encroaching religious domination of the secular state’s laws and institutions.
INFIDEL – Interesting you cite falling birth rates, I find that encouraging and perhaps it will allay the fears of the whites in the UK and France (if they want to believe it) who project an image of their countries swarming with Muslims that want to take over the government. The French and British cultures are both capable of genius and sadly both capable of ignorance too and like here in the USA, bigotry and intolerance speak with a loud voice.
Infidel I agree with you. There are millions of Obama haters out there and it has little to do with his politics and everything to do with the color of his skin. I also expect to see a marked rise in domestic terrorism. Where I live these nutters have things like huge crosses, bedecked with little lights, standing in their front yards. They are sending two messages. One of hate and the other of their ultimate religious hypocrisy. If there is a third world in America it is in the Deep South.
Mike, I would cavil on one point. I don’t think racism is the main driving force of the far-right radicalism we’re seeing. That factor is certainly their but the main driving force really is religion.
The American left is overwhelmingly secular and has a lot of trouble understanding religion and the religious mentality. Confronted with a religious phenomenon, it tries to re-interpret that phenomenon in terms of something else which is more familiar — taking religion not as the actual motivator but as a cover for something else.
This is why, for example, most American leftists don’t understand Islamic terrorism — they think in terms of historic grievances, colonialism, Israel, and so forth, and can’t grasp or can’t believe that the real roots of the problem lie in Islamic religious doctrines (as the American atheist Sam Harris has pointed out, American fundamentalists ironically understand the jihadists better than American leftists do, because their ways of thinking are more similar). In the same way, leftists tend to re-interpret the Christian Right in terms of things like racism or economic factors, which are more familiar and which they’re more comfortable talking about.
Racism is certainly there, but if Obama were white, I think we’d still be seeing basically the same problem.
I think it might be half and half Infidel. Racism and religion. A poisonous combo indeed.
To say that one religious ideology should be forced on all people, is insane. To use violence to ensure that religious rule over all people, is religious terrorism.
The Crusades are a good example of religious terrorism. Bombing abortion clinics, killing abortion doctors, is religious terrorism. Forcing Native Americans to worship the God of the King James Bible, was religious terrorism.
If a religious group’s goal, or platform, is to force their religion on all people (whether they use violence or not) they are religious terrorists.
The religious right in America, has terrorized America and Americans. They had (still have) a planned attack against the government of the United States.
To say that any one political ideology should rule all people, is insane. To use violence to instill any political ideology over people, is political terrorism.
A good example of political terrorism, is what Stalin did in Russia. Hitler, by military force, enforced his political ideology over the people’s he conquered.
Trying to force (whether violence is used or not) Democracy on all people’s of the World, is political terrorism.
It’s not a matter of whether good intentioned people think one political ideology is better than another; to force their ideology over other people, is political terrorism.
I consider the Republic we have in America a far superior form of governing people, than say the form of government that Iraq had; but, we offensively invaded and have now forced Democracy (questionable) on Iraq, at the point of a gun.
The Iraqi people spoke long ago; thanks America for getting rid of Saddam, now please leave. We did not leave, but we picked their leader, formed their Constitution, and demanded basic treatment of their people no matter who, or what kind of government they (freely?) elect.
Having forced all of this on the Iraqi people, is it not terrorism just because we believe it to be better, than what they had before? It’s obvious that an American type Democracy does not fit for the Iraqi people. Iraqi people want to vote, but they will not vote for an American type of Democracy.
Decades ago, America ousted Iran’s freely elected leader, because we decided he was anti American. Was that political terrorism? Was that the cause of our problems with Iran?
I’m just ranting. Delete this if you want, but I wanted to point out that forcing people to live under any religious, or political ideologies they do not want, is not natural for them, or does not fit them, is terrorism.
Tom I would never delete one of your comments and I agree with every single word you said. There are several forms of terrorism and you hit on the main ones right here. Thanks for stopping by man.
I get religious-based emails at my place for work, damn it. Me, and people like me, are considered odd because we didn’t want religious music playing earlier this year at an event at our children’s public school. I live in a part of the country where I am totally surrounded by fanatics, and they think I’m weird. And these people are all very polticially active, and their politics, for 99% of them, are tied to nothing but their religion. To discuss religion and politics with these people is one and the same.
Sky I live in South Georgia, about 30 miles north of the Florida line. There are fanatics on the left of me and the right of me. It is depressing. I would get the hell out of here but I have to wait until the economy improves.
Mike,
Great post, needs to be said again and again to counter the kind of intolerance exhibited by so many Christians.
I should point out I’m a practicing Christian (guess I haven’t got it right yet,so I practice)so my view is from a possibly different perspective but I see nothing offensive in your post, in fact I agree with all of it.
What does sadden me is the way so many twisted fundamentalists of all faiths warp what can be beautiful teachings, either as part of an agenda or more often out of narrow minded bigotry.
Oso I am so glad you brought that up. I do not refer to the many, many good Christian people in America. I am a Catholic and they have a lot of problems, although I haven’t darkened the door of a church in over 30 years. Like you mentioned I am talking about the real fanatics and there are a lot of them. I never realized how many until I moved to the Heart of Darkness.
Infidel /Holte : If what you say is true it will be a VERY big blessing. Most Brits tend to judge from their own places. The towns they live in. I’m, probably, not in a town where judging these things is an easy task. Southall next door is no longer, and hasn’t been for many years, an English town – not a racist comment by the way. The Spanish are also getting pissed off with certain Brits who seem to have created Brit enclaves in Spain – quite right too in my opinion.
If I settled in another country I would A) Respect their ways and B) Do my best to fit in and learn the language.
I consider anything less to be ignorance and to deserve treatment accordingly.
The Asians of Southall did precisely what the Brits in Spain have done. It’s human nature. Safety in numbers.
Next door Hayes Town however is, currently, a wee bit different.
We have an inordinant amount of African muslims who have appeared over the last 5 years or so. Primarily Somalian or similar.
The Asians HATE them with a vengeance. The whites? We’re relatively ok apart from full face burkhas which, frankly, should be made illegal. They have no religious significance at all and are purely used for subjugating women. (The suspicion is a few women are wearing them as a wind up…I think that is likely too)
Ultimately, Islam IS a dangerous religion. I’ve read The Koran. (A translation I hasten to add) – Regardless of how you interpret it, it is perfectly clear that Islam has no place in the world for any other religion but Islam.
Now ‘moderate’ / ‘ordinary’ muslims will not use violence to achieve this aim but the minority of nutters will.
Ultimately, even if we defeat ‘the nutters’ how do we defeat the ‘moderate’ and ‘ordinary’ as indeed we must. Eventually. Perhaps not in my lifetime, but eventually.
The birth rate may be leveling out (not in Hayes Town it isn’t…I can promise that) but, whilst other religions…Buddhism, Judaism, Christian Scientists, Catholicism…accept that they have NO part to play in the governance of any country, Islam IS a way of life and will never kow tow to any other ‘way of life’.
I wholeheartedly agree that there are ‘Islamophobes’ in Britain. Of course there are. It IS a ‘frightening’ religion to the west. I am NOT an Islamophobe personally. I campaigned hard for a ‘prayer room’ as a union rep at Heathrow for my muslim members – many of whoem I have remained in touch with and friendly with since I left – on the grounds that the ‘locker room’ was hardly appropriate.
What IS missing in the debate over Islam and the West is common sense and an inate fear by western politicians – certainly in the UK – to acknowledge publically and, indeed state publically, that Islam must adapt to the UK and not vice versa.
That is all sane people want to hear.
The question is, should any political party over here have the balls to say what the people want to here, what response would we then here from Islam?
I do apologise for virtually posting in your comments Mike, but I so so want some honest and open debate in this country.
Currently there is none – and comments like mine would immediately tar me as racist and Islamophobic – which, frankly, upsets me enormously.
I spent an hour today having a cup of tea with an old work colleague called Mohammed Noor. We had a really nice ‘good to see you again’ chat.
I just wish someone in the public eye would say “ENOUGH”
Islam is welcome in the UK as long as Islam follows our ways.
You do / can you stay and welcome.
You don’t / can’t you’re leaving.
It’s not really rocket science is it?
Mr. DINNERS – Well put.
here? oh dear…I might make sense when I’m pissed but I certainly can’t spell!…;-)
Actually I have the ability to edit comments but when I saw it was you I said..Nahhhh!!
Know what I tell people who want to say “this is a christian country”? I say: “ok, which christianity?”
I get blank stares. Fact: There are numerous denominations of protestantism alone, and not a single one can get along with another.
So, ok, they want this to be a christian nation. Fine. Shall it be Southern Baptist? Oh, no, they’re much too strict. Ok, how about Methodist? Oh, no, they’re not strict enough. Ok, how about evangelical? Oh, no, they’re batty and play with snakes. Ok, then, how about presbyterian? Oh, no, they’re much too papist. Ok, how about…Oh No…Ok, how about….Oh No, etc ad nauseum.
That’s the part they don’t get, or don’t want to admit – that at the end of the day, even the wording of the 10 commandments would be cause for bitter dispute, and soon enough a bloodbath would erupt.
Bee how true. They all hate each other, these protestants, but they really hate the Catholics and the Jews? Oh boy!!! The Catholics on the other hand consider themselves the one true church and singularly responsible for the J-Master B himself.
Roman Catholics can probably build a convincing argument that their lineage goes back to the origins of Christianity, approximately 2000 years. Baptist on the other hand emerged about 1600-ish, but I have spoken to Southern Baptists who swear there were Baptists at the foot of the Cross and witnessed the crucifixion of Christ? Ba’al help us.
Glad some have brought up regular, not fanantical, Christians. I appreciate them. Hell, I used to be one of them (of the Methodist persuasion). I just don’t see that many living where I do (near the world headquarters of the Assembly of God). When I do find these people, they are the 1% I referred to who do not have their politics and religion too tightly bound all the time.
Oso, I am glad to know that you are still a Christan and that Sky was one. My son is a major league Christian and I respect that. I still apply the remnants of the political and economic Rational Man Analysis to this debate with me being the Rational Man. If a person truly believes his/her faith, then anything different is wrong. But, the Christian thing to do is to accept their short comings. Sitting on the sideline and conducting the analysis’s in an objective way. Right now no one has a clear lead.
Holte: I agree that the RC’s are probably right when they say their religion has the most “history.” All of the other nutters, aka the protestants, came after. The Jews of course have been hanging about forever, or so it seems
Holte: Well, John was called John the Baptist, wasn’t he? No doubt he was a member of the Souther Baptist Convention and spoke English, just like Jesus.
Mad Mike: There are Protestant sects which believe the Catholic Church is literally the work of Satan (I have a collection of Chick tracts which would make your hair stand on end). Such people would probably be hardly more tolerant of you than of me.
Four Dinners: I think you have the sitution well figured out. I’ve long felt that Britain today is a bit like the US in the 1980s — there is a lot of smouldering discontent about issues like this, but political correctness inhibits people from talking about it. Well, the political correctness eventually broke down here, and it will break down there.
If you’ve read the Koran, you know it’s a lot more coherent and less ambiguous than the Bible and leaves a lot less wiggle room to fudge things and claim to be tolerant while still being a good religious person. Moderate Islam will always be an unstable phenomenon because when moderate Muslims read the Koran it’s right there in black and white that the bin Laden and Taliban types, not the moderates, are representing what Islam truly is. (The same is true of Christianity really — it’s just a lot less obvious from the sacred writings).
I think in the end it will just die out.
In the meantime, I don’t have anything against religious people so long as they don’t try to push it on me or other people — by, for example, trying to introduce religion into politics.
INFIDEL – You are right about John The Baptist, after all he wasn’t called John The Methodist, John The Catholic or John The Scientologist.
John the Baptist was so named because that is what he did…baptize, at least until what’s her name had his head chopped and delivered to her on a silver platter. Can’t believe I don’t remember her name. Mrs. Herod?
MIKE – I knew John was a baptizer, i was just kidding about the rest of the names, were you thinking about Salome the dancer.
LOL Holte! Yup! I think that is who it was. Salami…
Infidel I am with you. I have no problem with any religion as long as they aren’t trying to recruit me or impress upon me their standards and values.