To Mosque or not to Mosque: Reflections on cultural sensitivity
Read Time:2 Minute, 3 Second
I’ve been out of the loop with current events for some time. I think I buried my head so firmly in the sand sometime around Bush’s reelection that I failed to realize the news might once again be safe to watch without being thrown into a depression regarding the state of our nation.
Well, at least I thought the news was once again safe to watch.
I’ve recently quit the ostrich-act, and what I have found all around me are discussions about the “controversy” of the proposed mosque near Ground Zero in New York City.
As it turns out, the peace-loving Muslims have failed on all fronts. They haven’t been loud enough to drown out the racket of extremists, which makes them as culpable as the extremists and, by extension, means that they should not have a place to worship.
Additionally, although of course not all Muslims were behind 9/11, because the offenders committed their crimes in the name of Islam, all Muslims do need to be sensitive to the needs of others to the extent of avoiding any presence anywhere that they might potentially spur others’ thoughts of Islam and by extension the horrors of 9/11.
I’ve really taken to this reasoning, and now understand that this is a matter of sensitivity, not one of religious freedoms. Being a peace-loving person to a fault, I think I can really get behind this. That’s why I’ve decided to throw my weight behind the opposition to the placement of the mosque. In fact, I’ve decided that we should implement other “zones of sensitivity” whereby whites avoid those places that race-based violence has occurred (to play it safe, this may entail cordoning off the south) and heterosexuals avoid Wyoming.
I know it may seem like a dramatic step to suggest that we cut off British immigration and tourism; there may not be any Revolutionary War vets crossing our borders, but human sensitivity can be a funny thing, and maybe not everyone shares my love of British accents. I would hate to have any of my fellow Americans unwillingly subject to a state of cultural-memory-rooted PTSD.
I haven’t yet figured out how to be most sensitive to Native Americans, but if the mosque discussion is any indication, it’s a question that should be able to occupy the national imagination for quite some time.
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Sadly, I have yet to hear any muslim in the UK condemn Islamic fundamentalists and terrorists. At least publically.
Just saying.
Ok, so I made a comment last night that the site was purchased, permits granted, blabbity blabbity. I WAS WRONG. The group wanting to build the mosque, has not even hired an architect to draw up plans because they have less than 20k of the 100 million they need for what is wanted. SO, everyone has been getting all kinds of misinformation, your truly included. Can you imagine if this is true, from Politico so I have some doubts and will do more research. This means that conservative bloggers once again, will have muddied up the waters and we all got taken in again.
Ok, So I am bad to my original question, why are they pushing so hard for THAT site, even when they have no money to do it? Are we thinking it might have something to do with the media attention?
*** I am back to….
I don’t think so. Like I said this was instigated by conservative bloggers who got a burr up the backside, forwarded it to republican congresscritters who thought they could have a winning election strategy by hating on “the other”, in this case Muslims. The group have already acquired one half of the building, according to the Politico report and were looking for funding for the construction. Much like any other construction project. As far as the media attention, this is what happens when media is not doing due diligence in reporting. They are giving information in spurts, so that it is a new thing to be discovered daily.
To all who have written here–It has been such a joy to watch this exchange! For me it’s far less about who feels which way on the topic, than it is about the ability to have an open, meaningful and friendly discussion, and this has far exceeded anything that I might have hoped for. “How cool.”
Interesting story about the destroyed Greek Orthodox church, St. Nicholas.
It was very small, 1200 sq ft. The Port Authority promised 20 mil and enough land for a 24,000 sq ft church, half paid by the PA and half by J.P. Morgan who is interested in “ground zero” property. The original 1200 sq ft is on the periphery and needed for support walls. The PA claims the church wants the $ upfront rather than in stages.
From what I can determine, the church authorities seem to be trying to leverage the mosque issue thru interviews with Fox News, claiming nothing is being done. OTOH if half the $ promised to the church is to come from J.P. Morgan, who bought up the corpses of Bear Stearns and Washington Mutual they may have a right to be skeptical.
I think the president who I voted for made a mistake when he was in your face on this thing. I don’t want a mosque in my neighborhood. I don’t want a mosque in the graveyard of those who died on September 11, 2201. I don’t care about the Muslims anymore than I care about the rest of the God crackers but I care if you slap my face with your arrogance.
This post was thoughtful, and compassionate, mixed with caring quiet laughter and followed by som many comments from people who give a care about their country. I compliment this blog and all who live here, with a nod to greenlight for this introspection. Bravo.
I am a sucker for punishment, I am going to add fuel to this fire.
What about the only church destroyed by the 9/11 attack? It was a Greek Orthodox Church…….
Mike,
You should weigh in on this, aren’t you…oh GREEK Orthodox,
I thought Robin wrote GEEK Orthodox.
Lol Oso! I hear you 🙂 Every word 🙂
I think this is one of the best writings for a while. I come here every day and love everything, but this is something I can talk about. I am from Pakistan. I cam here 10 years ago and knew I would never leave. People here don’t hate me. They hate me more in my home country because I am froma different area than they are froim. If we, me an my family, had not come to America they would have killed us, harshly. I love America. I hate Islam and they should not build in a place of pain. They are doing it for bragging and more pain. I am sorry if I offend.Thank you for writing this.
Then you know persecution first hand, so why would you say these Muslim citizens are building this facility, just to cause more pain? To me personally, yeah that is offensive, mainly because you have dealt with people hating you and you are doing the same to another group of people.
Pacermade – No offense taken, thanks for sharing your perspective. What a great discussion! A lot of people share your thoughts on Islam, which is likely why this is such big news to begin with. The interesting thing about the U.S., we stand by individual liberty so long as it doesn’t infringe on that of others, but we have all of the same in-group/out-group (racial, religious, etc.) tensions and personal beliefs and biases as anyone else. We’re like one giant knot of cognitive dissonance.
I’m late to the party, so I’ll just reel in like a drunkard that sat in the parking lot outside the festivities guzzling mojitos while everyone else was having intelligent conversation.
My daughter’s take on this : “Man, I’ve been listening to the radio and ALL they are talking about is this mosque in New York. WTF? I am all for it. At least it is something different than all the Christian churches that are on every street corner.” (which they literally are in this town)
My take on it: 1) It isn’t really “on” ground zero.
2) All religions have equal rights to worship
3)I would just as soon no other religious edifice was EVER built n this country, so if I am against it it is because I am against putting up tax-free monuments to superstition.
4) It is a non-issue being used to divert attention from other, more important issues that deserve notice.
Robin,
One other thing that confuses some people and has been exploited by the media are Muslim celebrations this year on Sept 12th. Many have interpreted this as mocking the 9/11 victims, it’s actually a feast day following Ramadan’s one month of fasting from daybreak to sunset. It’s lunar-based to the date varies.
People have also suggested moving the date, it sounds simple but would be analogous to requesting Christians move Christmas into February this year.
One more example of the media fanning the flame of controversy.
Lol Jess! You never fail to impress me..:-) Oh. Sorry. You too O-man 🙂
Nothing like being an informed person. You get to annoy all kinds of people with facts and sometimes you get someone to take a second look at what you say even. THAT is what makes it matter. If you can change one mind with facts and truth, you have done something right. Just like you guys are doing here, giving people an outlet to express all kind of views. Oh man, there I go sucking up again. I need to go kick my butt for a minute, so I don’t do it again today. Don’t want you guys getting all big headed about it.
I want my position to be clear, I am not super religious person, To be honest I am curious about all religions for personal interpretation, but nothing has jumped out at me yet.
I hold not ill opinions for any religions (well I have a few issues with opus dei, but that’s another story)
I do not think it is a religion that is bad, I think it is obsessive, deranged, extremist take twist the religions words for negative purpose.
Well Robin I am an atheist and damn proud of it so you have nothing to worry about from this group. There are a few good Christians, friends all, that are scattered among us, but for the most part the rest look at religion with a jaundiced eye.
I have a VERY firm opinion “TO EACH THEIR OWN!” what makes you happy should be left up to each individual. If I think you are on to something and I want to know the details… I’ll ask, I am not the shy type ☺
I have been watching (and joining) a lot of conversations on this subject. So far my mother has come up with the only argument that holds even a tiny bit of validity: Who is paying for this Mosque to be built and do they have ties with any terrorist organizations?
Granted, this does not negate the issue of the right to religious freedom, but out of all the arguments against the Mosque that I have heard, this one had a bit of weight to it. Not much, mind you, but enough to make me think for a minute.
And Robin, you are not the only person to have been misled by mass media on this topic. Just about everyone I’ve spoken to who is against it was under the same impression you were; that the Mosque would be AT ground zero. But again, location doesn’t negate or override the right to religious freedom.
Risa,
with all due respect, why would you ask if a community center’s financing is tied to terrorism?
Do you do that for a YMCA ? Or a Jewish community center? Or you only consider murder of civilians for political purposes wrong when it’s Muslims doing it?
osori, did you even read my whole post? I did not say that was MY argument against the Mosque, I’m not even against it! I simply said that this argument held slightly more weight than any others I had heard. Also, I didn’t ask the question; someone I was debating with did. I also went on to say that it didn’t really matter (although, not in so many words) because the right to religious freedom trumps all the arguments I’ve heard so far. I’m sorry if you misunderstood.
Risa,
I did read your post, once the emotions are flying I lose a little perspective.
Sorry to come off “holier than thou”. Fault entirely mine.
osari, apology accepted. And I completely understand your emotional response.
I have to say, out of all the places I’ve been watching on this subject, this group is the nicest, most articulate bunch. You people actually have integrity, which is a breath of fresh air for me. Thanks, everyone!
Thank you, Risa.
I know everyone here would love for you to visit regularly. Please keep coming back, the site has something for everyone. From religion to atheism, politics to pet tips. And the occasional overly emotional whacko like myself!
So if they build that mosque then what? You know thy’re going to build the thing. I don’t much care cause I don’t live in that place and would never want to but when does this all end. I mean Mr. Greenlight said it really well. What’s next? A fence around Alabama? That may not be a bad idea really. This is a good article. Made me think. Thanks.
Mayor Bloomberg’s approval rating went down 14 points because of this (i.e., his support for the project). How did HE respond? He didn’t. He stayed firm. Too bad Mr.Obama didn’t follow and do the same.
Funny thing Will, I was just over at TPM and there is a new poll that shows, many people are in fact against this, BUT they think they should be able to build because of the rights guaranteed under the Constitution.
My compliments to the author of this story. I come here every day, and sometimes even several times a day. It is my favorite place. I don’t know you however Green Light but I’m glad to meet you. You need to hang around. You are in some really fine company.
Thanks–this means a lot to me. I’m on the site all the time, just usually not writing. I’ve seen what a great community this is, and I’m humbled to have so many names that I recognize commenting on this story.
I feel compelled to point out that building of the Mosque and right of free religion is not this issue! The issue is the location! BUT AGAIN I must respectfully ask why is that spot needed? I do not understand what the significance of this spot is for the Muslims.
I don’t think there was any significance from everything I have read about it, Robin, over the last few days. They purchased an old Burlington coat factory, which is about as far from hallowed ground as I can think, they paid for it and they got the permits to build their community gathering place. There are already 2 or 3 other mosques in that same area and those have not been an issue, why this one, would be the question I would ask of the people opposed to this?
I read your post and off I went to verify facts….. Now, I sit and wonder…. I think that I have been a “victim” of the media. The word ‘at’ by itself is harmless, add it to Mosque built “at” ground zero, and the New Yorker in me arches an eyebrow and starts to listen. Had the headline said “Mosque near ground zero” I don’t know I would have taken the same defensive stance. I feel sort of fatwitted for not looking for the exact location until you pointed it out. Thank you!
Don’t ever feel fatwitted because you didn’t know something. You went and did your own research to verify, so that you were not counting on one view or the other and were willing to take a second look. Don’t ever think that is being fatwitted, that is being an informed member of society because you were willing to give it that next step. Many people would not have done that and it would have been a circle where we might have ended up just crosstalking each other, no one willing to listen to the other. The media role in this, has been a little shameful because they are not saying it is close to, they are leading people to believe it would be in the footprint of the two towers. No, not the case.
Some might take offense to this term but I say that this type of media is “bush media”
It’s pretty hard to insult this group Robin except maybe….never mind 🙂
Robin, after finding that information out when you did extra research, you didn’t have to come back on and post what you had found. But you did and that to me is a very admirable and shows a lot of integrity.
And it is hard to insult this group….unless you talk about the thing that dare not be mentioned.
What’s the thing that dare not be mentioned or if you mention it will we all be required to worship in mosques and pray and other things. Anything but that.
Well the whole liberal media meme they try and put out is way off the mark. The views of media is to put the ratings first, get the people scared. Not for nothing, I don’t think people here could be insulted by anything. I try and try to insult all of them, but I still am allowed to come back daily.
Nail meet hammer, right on the nose post with this. I don’t get all the kerfluffle at all.
Sensitivity my narrow ass. In that oh so hallowed ground, of a Burlington coat factory?? there is going to be a shopping mall underneath, the new WTC, YES they have no problems with the shopping, but extending rights guaranteed there is a problem. Right in the area of this facility there are porn shops, live nude girls places. It is a community facility, supposedly the whole community will be invited to use it. So should the rest of us get bent about churches going up because we don’t like what some Christianists, stand for?
All of a sudden Sept 11 is important again to some people. Last week, couldn’t be bothered with the 9-11 heroes and their healthcare, same week a mosque going up is an issue. The Pentagon for f*cks sake has a mosque in it. Yeah THAT Pentagon. Having had a good friend of mine die on flight 93, this kind of stuff pisses me off, to no end. It would be like me saying, all Christians are responsible because some idiot went and shot George Tiller while he was at church because of his occupation. IDIOTS, don’t deserve to breathe the same oxygen we do. Now I have nothing nice to say, so I am stopping before I get booted from this family blog.
My Jess crush is back on! x 2
My my my, how quickly your heart turns. Does MH know about your tendency to be fickle? I may just have to have a talk with her. I’m glad though, since it would make it hard for me to come live in your paradise if you didn’t like me anymore ;). I’d get over it but for about 5 minutes I might feel uncomfortable.
I am confused about this argument that the Mosque should NOT be built because of a “sensitivity” issue. Wasn’t the 9/11 event caused by terrorists? Are they saying that all 1.5 billion Muslims are terrorists?
Having “sensitivity” about the Mosque being built near the 9/11 site indirectly implies that all Muslims are somehow connected to the terrorist Act, doesn’t it?.
If a person has issues with Mosque, they shouldn’t hide behind this “sensitivity” crap, call it for what it is. Bigotry! At least they would be honest about it then.
There is no issue about having Christian churches around the Murray Building Memorial in Oklahoma City.
The description used for the Jewish Defense League is…
“The group has orchestrated countless terrorist attacks in the U.S. and abroad, and has engaged in intense harassment of foreign diplomats, Muslims, Jewish scholars and community leaders, and officials.”
Does this mean that to respect my “sensitivity”, no Synagogues should be built in the United States?
Muslim religious extremest killing in the name of the jihad is….???????????
Jihad 1.Islam. An individual’s striving for spiritual self-perfection.
2.Islam. A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels.
Muslim religious extremest killing in the name of the jihad is….?????????? That answer would be Muslim religious extremists.
For most Shias, offensive jihad can only be declared by a divinely appointed leader of the Muslim community, and as such is suspended since Muhammad al-Mahdi’s occultation in 868 AD. Islamic extremism interprets Jihad as a military meaning.
Islam is not the only producer of religious extremism. Christians kept up their version of Jihad, the Inquisition, until the 16th century.
The ugly fact is that Religion produces extremism, has throughout history. The only way to get rid of that terrible side effect is to get rid of religion. I don’t see that happening anytime soon.
Do you have personal understanding of the religion?
Did you know that the mission of Muhammad was to command Muslims slay down “infidel’s” (or non believers)who rejected the faith.
And the Oklahoma bombing was not religiously motivated, it was in result of unstable mans reaction to Waco. I don’t understand your comparison
I think you may have missed the underlying foundation of the post Krell. Then again maybe not 🙂
Mike, I understand the post, an excellent one I might add.
I was just voicing my disbelief that the Mosque is even an issue in the news. I thought the country was about freedom of religion and the right to have a place of worship. Doesn’t seem to be the case these days.
I have to agree with you there my friend. There does seem to be a lot of Mosque kerfuffle but that is the nature of America it seems.
You are certainly right about that Mike. I really didn’t mean to hijack the comments section with my soapbox ramblings so I apologize to Greenlight.
Excellent post by the way, Greenlight.
No apologies necessary, Krell. I’m honored to see people getting in on the discussion, you included. 🙂
Point well made, GL. All the controversy surrounding the issue of building a mosque three blocks from where the World Trade Center used to stand exists solely in people’s minds. We can be an awfully silly species.
Thanks, Lawyer. A silly species indeed.
Anything that keeps crackers a comfortable distance from me, I’m all for.
A great philosopher* once opined, I’m offended when people are offended.
*of course I mean Lemmy.
Motorhead, no doubt will be weighing in on this conversation before too long.
Might I suggest euro-Americans not be allowed to live near the site of the Wounded Knee Massacre?
Yes! Then again they need to be reminded don’t they?
I should have read this whole thing. YES Stimpson, props to you man.
The old adage, “If you don’t know the past you are doomed to repeat it” can be taken too far. If the US didn’t kiss and make up with old enemies they wouldn’t have many friends and neither would most of the leading nations in the world. It all boils down to political correctness and an over sensitivity, perhaps to best way to defeat this is to start calling the men of this country “Americans with a penis,” and Native Americans could be called “The People who lived here before we stole it from them.”
It’s easy to get behind the ire of the American people. The American people (in majority) have not always been correct, and I think this is one of those times, they are wrong.
But, the President had it right when he spoke to the rights people have. That is a Presidential position. Stating the Constitutional stance of the issue.
This is a topic that will be a sore one, even for many years to come. I am a New Yorker and every year on September 11th I hold my breath until the day is over. We as a country say that we stand for freedom, but this is only true to an extent. Freedom is there only until you impede on another persons freedoms. You can not rid the world, or even just a country of all bias, and to think you could is simply foolish. Whether a person is for or against the mosque becomes a very rough subject. If you object you are going against what we say we stand for, if you are for it, you might be told you are unpatriotic. Seems to me there is a catch 22. Obama is the president he can not say NO it would be a political nightmare for him. But please remember that he also did not say yes! He is a smart man he knows that New York will never let a Mosque be put there! This will become a paper work “mishap” and any other legal resistance, not to mention the people of New York! Would we allow the same to be done at concentration camps? This in my opinion adds insult to injury. New York is a big place, find another place, ground zero belongs to the men and women of September 11th.
I think the question is how much we should (or shouldn’t) acquiesce to the connection that is often drawn between Islam more generally, and the beliefs and motivations of the 9/11 terrorists.
True, the acts were carried out in the name of jihad–but plenty of acts have been carried out “in the name of” plenty of things, without being a clear or true reflection of those things. This would be like barring Jodie Foster from visiting DC, on account of that “Hinckley” incident.
This isn’t meant to make light of the topic–A more direct analogy would be to consider whether the same controversy would surround the placement of a church nearby if the terrorists had been Christians attempting to punish the U.S. for the legality of abortions. I would hope that NYC would be understanding of the distinction between mainstream Christianity and the acts of individuals who use it as justification for truly horrific acts, and I would have hoped for the same distinction to be drawn here.
This issue for me has more than on factor. I do understand that drawing the line between sensitivity and freedoms need to be made, and I also understand that there is a clear difference between a religion and its extremist. BUT may I ask why they need to build it right there? Why have they chose that spot and pushed so hard? Why is no one is asking them what is sooooo special about that spot, that they need it to be there! because I understand WHY so many DO NOT want it there!!!
Robin,
Muhammad referred to both Christians and Jews as “people of the earlier revelations” meaning the Bible and Torah. They were accorded respect.
The calls to violence were directed against pagan tribes who preyed on his fledgling followers.
Although individual Muslims can be intolerant (like their Christian brethren) Muhammad did not call for violence against Christians or suppression of their religion.
No… he was simply told to spread the word to slay the non believers right?
Hi Robin,
that was the pagans, yeah. Not that those weren’t brutal times,we see a lot of stuff like that in the Bible. You know, like Samson and the Philistines. But the religion itself doesn’t spread anti “people of the book” hatred.
I’m no scholar, I just got curious after the WTC attacks and wondered about all this hatred that we were told came from that religion. The more I learned, I realized it’s very much like Christianity, with the additional prophet (Muhammad) plus believing Jesus wasn’t crucified but was instead taken up to be with God till Judgment Day. Pretty interesting to see the same basic cast of characters (Noah, Moses, etc).
Absolutely brilliant Greenlight. What an absorbing read.