Time to terrorize the terrorizers

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Part of my usual morning routine is watching MSNBC. Today one of the more elite sounding liberals [who I can’t stand], Katrina VandenHeuvel, spoke about taking time to remember and grieve the victims of the bombing attacks at the Boston Marathon.

Of course Katrina is right and wrong. The fact is we’ve been kicked around by these terrorist bastards far too long. The steps we’ve taken to fight back have cost us far more in lives and treasure than any benefit enjoyed. I could go into that more but it’s been gone into enough so I figure we all know where we stand by now.

President Obama made the usual statement following one of these attacks about bringing the criminals to justice and no stone will be unturned. Always a good thing. But after all the terror attacks isn’t it time for some real justice?

When the hostages were released after the Iran crisis why didn’t Reagan turn Tehran into a parking lot? Screw the damn Russians.

There are rich Saudi families that support Al Qaeda. Their mansions should have been leveled.

Iran trained insurgents that killed Americans in the Iraq occupation. Once again, Tehran should be a parking lot.

But we invade and spend more on defense than the next ten countries combined. Russia and China are playing us like fiddles. They aren’t going to invade us. But China will sure use North Korea to get us to spend more money that could be spent on a real health care system for our nation rather than more on defense stuff that make Raytheon and General Dynamics lots of money while driving up our debt.

We don’t have the facts regarding the Boston Marathon bombings. Could be home grown terrorists. I have faith our law enforcement people will quickly find out those responsible. And when they do I hope the bastards die horribly in a fire fight with agents who think like I do.

For what is justice really? It is a civilized way of saying “revenge.” And if that means I’m not a good, card carrying liberal anymore because I’d like to see terrorist thugs and their benefactors die horrible deaths, then I can live with that.

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Joe Hagstrom

Reformed Liberal now dedicated to saving world from Obamacare and Godless Atheists. Using MadMike's America to audition for high paying job with Fox News.
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Bill Formby
11 years ago

At this point I will add a saying that is credited to Confucius. “Man who starts a journey of revenge should first dig two graves.”

Joe Hagstrom
11 years ago

Yes Norman. We are better than “they” are. Our hand of friendship is extended. It is spit on by those who propagandize to the people they oppress with their stone age views of women and human rights.

If anyone had followed me over the years they would know I never supported any of the invasions. Not in 1991 or the two younger Bush invasions and occupations. I supported getting the bad guys with bombs if we knew who they were and they really were that bad.

Kuwait never gave a us a deal on oil. The Saudis aren’t coming to our relief to keep gas under $2 a gallon.

If leaving the areas where terror is used to oppress and spread hatred then I’m all for it. But those who hate terror and oppression would be far better served by our actions against to bad guys.

Joe Hagstrom
11 years ago

The world looks for America do something about everything. Turning the other cheek is not one of those things. We’re out of cheeks to turn.

That there is hatred toward us is no surprise and much of it justified. We propped up the shah for decades. But as Reagan said, “these people are irrational.” They teach us a lesson through terror and submitting themselves to brutal, oppressive Islamic law regimes? The Arab Spring has turned into another country Islamic radicals have established themselves, Egypt.

We must protect our interests and unfortunately that means sometimes violently protecting them and our allies. And I also believe the level headed people everywhere will appreciate terrorists and their benefactors being eliminated.

Jess
Reply to  Joe Hagstrom
11 years ago

That and the cheeks we have turned, have been spanked more than once to where no safe word is going to stop the spankings. I am tired of us being the heavy lifter in vioeltn actions worldwide. Let us have a rest and the rest of them pick up some slack for a while.

Reply to  Joe Hagstrom
11 years ago

Joe! You are a great chap and your passion for ‘what is right’ shines forth but brake hard young fella me lad. Please?

If ‘we’, the West, nuke Tehran and all those clearly awful places then ‘are we really BETTER than they are’??

Yes. We have to defend ourselves and, ultimatley, we have to ‘nuke’ those that would ‘nuke’ us before they can but are we really there yet?

I immediately agree that I might be left saying “Oops” as Tehran’s bomb drops but can’t we still try an find some common ground?

For the sake if humanity can’t we at least try?

11 years ago

We have delved very deeply down this rabbit hole. And I get that much of this discussion is really an expression of emotion…and justified outrage.

I ask that your read carefully…”listen”…and don’t jump to conclusions about what I am about to say. What I am NOT about to say is that terrorism is justified.

I believe that the old Catholic school tactic of punishing the whole class for the acts of one or two students does not work at the international level. The innocent victims of this “punishment” don’t assert peer pressure on the misbehaving students. Instead, they, in turn, exact revenge on the country that imposes the indiscriminate punishment.

An inescapable fact is that the USA is an imperialist nation. In our own way, we colonize, exploit and assert our rule around the world much as Great Britain (and every empire before them) did. It’s vital to remember that, regardless of how brutal, powerful or wealthy any empire is at a point in time, the empire will eventually fall if it generates resentment and enemies. Some empires endure for a good period of time and then fall gracefully…as did the British Empire. Others crash and burn. The fate of any empire MAY be inversely proportional to the level of brutality and injustice it imposed on subjects, colonies and opponents. The more brutal, the harder the fall.

Great Britain eventually succumbed to relentless assault by the IRA…”home-grown” terrorists who fought to eradicate injustice. The simple fact was that, when it was all said and done, there were no terrorist enclaves to level…no strongholds to obliterate. And western nations simply cannot exercise the kinds of force exploited by the old Soviet Union and China…or perhaps North Korea today. We would summarily be excommunicated from the civilized world. A fate we damned near brought upon us with our invasion of Iraq.

As much as I would like to exact vengeance on perpetrators of terrorism, life doesn’t work that way — at least not today. We must learn from the past. In the wake of WW-I, the victors exacted their pound of flesh from Germany at the expense of fostering WW-II.

Some terrorists won’t be placated by civilized behavior and abandoning colonizing, exploitative behaviors. These are likely to be the home-grown variety – the militias and other radicals who hate “society.” But international terrorism is another matter. Al-Qaeda may well be the devil incarnate, but we must never forget that Al-Qaeda is a response to US foreign policy and economic domination. One need only take a dispassionate look at US influence in the Middle East – with our puppet dictators and convenient embrace of monsters such as Saddam Hussein and MANY others – to realize that our situational ethics have played a role in fostering their hatred of us. The same can be said of our influence in South and Central America. The term “Ugly American” was coined for a reason.

So, do I support terrorism? Of course not. But part of the solution for terrorism is to stop breeding terrorists…to stop abusing other peoples of the world. As for “leveling” the terrorist strongholds, well we’ve been attempting to do quite a bit of that. We must step back and ask our selves, to borrow a phrase from, of all people, Sarah Palin, “how’s that ‘leveling’ strategy workin’ for ya?”

We have projected force, power and economic control for centuries, and it led us to where we are. Perhaps, as hard as it is to swallow, we need to try something else. The UK finally “got” this to some degree, which may explain why the British Empire never really fell, while the Roman Empire, despite the ability of a Roman citizen to walk unmolested throughout the empire at its peak, is nothing but a remarkable story in the history books.

My base instincts want vengeance, so I understand why others want vengeance, too. But I don’t think there is room in an evolved society to be “leveling” other societies as punishment for the acts of a few zealots.

Reply to  Jim Moore
11 years ago

One day old bean, I would love to meet up and share a pint or three and set the world to rights with you.

Getting old can be bitch eh? 😉

Reply to  Jim Moore
11 years ago

Jim, you have made my points exactly. I wish I could have said it as well. What we’re doing is not only not working, it’s making things worse. Like you and most everyone else here, I understand the desire, even the need for vengeance. That sometimes works on an individual level, but never on an international level.

As I have said in other places. if we had spent the resources on finding a viable substituent for oil to move our cars, planes, trains, and buses that we have spent building up and tearing down nations (sometimes the same countries) in the middle east, we would have plenty of our own oil for the plastics, pesticides, and other uses for it.

True, many oil company executives would have to find other jobs and wear a Timex instead of a Rolex and might even have to fly Business Class instead of First Class. I could live with that.

Reply to  James Smith
11 years ago

Accepting the part we play in making others hate us could be the most difficult challenge we will ever face. We are in a continual struggle between our baser instincts…for greed and disregard for others…and our recognition that we reap what we sow. Frequently baser instincts prevail.

Stepping away from the Middle East, we see this in our history of:
~ Slavery
~ Genocide of Native Americans
~ United Fruit hegemony in Hawaii, Central and South America
~ The overthrow of Hawaii
~ Our numerous puppet dictators, such as Noriega and many others
~ Our willingness to side with cooperative, easily bribed tyrants at the expense of indigenous populations
~ And so on.

It seems we are all to willing to support America’s aggression when it suits us and we have a leader willing to exploit our avarice. George W. Bush certainly wasn’t the first. Andrew Jackson comes to mind.

The rest of the world is certainly willing to look at the USA with a critical eye. Much as high concentrations of wealth in the USA come at the expense of the vast majority, the USA’s relatively high concentration of prosperity and power in the world comes at the expense of many other nations. Don’t think that they don’t notice.

11 years ago

Another side of revenge: http://nydn.us/129iIXm

11 years ago

I’m with Joe on this one. The only frigging justification for the use of force is in response to an act of aggression. Terrorism is naked aggression pure and simple. Innocents die and are maimed and therefore terrorists by their actions forfeit any right to their own life.

It is time to stop policing the world and it is time end much of our foreign aid. Use the savings to pay down the debt, scrap ObamaCare and replace it with something that will actually be an improvement.

Yep, Joe, missiles, surgical strikes, and even drones. Of course we will need a super effective middle defense shield.

Oh, and for the homegrown terrorists, when apprehended just run them through a large human sausage grinder feet first. Slow belt speed.

Joe Hagstrom
11 years ago

Maybe we should drop Jess on the scumbags.

Jess
Reply to  Joe Hagstrom
11 years ago

Joe, my husband would probably pay for the plane fare to be rid of me for a while. I am just not in the mood for idiots right now and IPU(bless her tiny hooves) anyone pissing me off right now is in for a world of hurt, so I wouldn’t mind taking one for the team so to speak 🙂

Jess
11 years ago

These people are seriously trying the patience of this dirty fuckin hippie’s, pacifistic leanings this week and it’s not done yet. I’m staying offline for the rest of the week before I give myself a stroke. This world is well and truly fucked and I want off it now.

Oh and if anyone wants to know, hubby and I did not get a second interview for Banjo the dog at the Coachella animal shelter last week, but the highs we managed, both contact and our own were to die for at the music festival. See you all when I don’t feel like stabbing people or killing them with rusty garden implements, chain saws mainly.

Reply to  Jess
11 years ago

Jess so sorry you didn’t get Banjo. Bless your heart for trying.

Joe Hagstrom
11 years ago

The threat of mutual destruction kept the peace during the Cold War. I see no reason the threat of destruction of terror abettors should not work as well.

Sorry for sounding mean but countries work on a different standard of morality than individuals.

Reply to  Joe Hagstrom
11 years ago

Except the Islamic terrorists are not really a country but from many countries. The thing they have in common is their belief if they die for Allah, they will be rewarded in Paradise with 72 virgins.

Consider how they are kept away from women all their lives and you might understand the appeal.

Joe Hagstrom
Reply to  James Smith
11 years ago

I’m talking about the financiers of terrorists James. They ain’t strapping bombs around their waists. They’re paying violent chumps to do it. Other than Bin Laden but he never strapped a bomb to himself either.

Reply to  Joe Hagstrom
11 years ago

I agree about their support club. First, we have to be able to prove who they are. Otherwise, we’re killing people for being Arab.

What’s next? Lynching people because they’re black? Wait, we’ve already done that.

Joe Hagstrom
Reply to  James Smith
11 years ago

Now you’re getting silly James. Black people are victims or terrorists also. As are Arab people and Hindu and white and everyone else.

I’m sure all these people want terrorists and enablers dealt with in the same measure they attack and kill the innocent.

Reply to  Joe Hagstrom
11 years ago

How is it being silly to state we should be able to prove who are the enablers before taking action against them?

The terrorists don’t bother with proof. It’s “Kill the infidels!” If there are a few that actually support their beliefs that are caught up in the bombs, too bad. They’ll be rewarded for their sacrifice in paradise.

Did I say we should not find and punish the supporters of terrorism? I said we should be certain we have the right people. If we do not, then we are simply terrorists on a different side.

Joe Hagstrom
Reply to  James Smith
11 years ago

I never said we should indiscriminately bomb Arabs or Blacks either James. We agree that terrorists and their supporters should be punished. We didn’t wait for evidence to be collected and a trial before declaring war on Japan. This is a different deal than an individual crime.

Reply to  Joe Hagstrom
11 years ago

No one said anything about a trial. My point is, killing indiscriminately the wrong people is counter-productive.

Right now, when we kill an actual terrorist, ten more seem to sign up. If, through “collateral damage”, we kill a civilian, 100 join the terrorist organization.

Do we want to make it even worse?

Joe Hagstrom
Reply to  James Smith
11 years ago

How would blowing up the palace of a financier of terror make it worse? How would anything make it worse?

When the world of terrorists is taken over by disciples of Ghandi I will gladly shut up.

The message has to be clear. Those at the top need to pay.

Reply to  Joe Hagstrom
11 years ago

If blowing up the palace of a Saudi prince made the nation of Saudi Arabia and/or other Islamic states formally declare against the USA and openly unite to destroy it, that would be considered worse by some.

When the USA is taken over by the disciples of Ghandi, a lot of people will shut up.

I agree, those at the top need to pay. All I am saying is we must be certain and can prove it, that we are taking out the right people. When we do that, real progress will be made. The financiers will know that they cannot act with impunity. For my money, Bin Laden was no more than a front man. The real power lies elsewhere.

Reply to  James Smith
11 years ago

Now how do you know it’s 72 James? – uh oh – al Qaida has infiltrated MMA 😉

“If you’ll be my bodyguard
I can be your long lost pal
I can call you Betty
And Betty when you call me
You can call me Al (Qaida)”

The Rememberance Osama Bin Liner Kareoke will begin shortly 😉

Reply to  Norman Rampart
11 years ago

72? I must be dense tonight (more than usual, I mean) I don’t get it.

I just changed strings on my new guitar for the first time and that’s always an emotional experience. It’s no longer new. So I may be a bit befuddled. (more than usual, I mean)

11 years ago

After WW II, the USA hanged some Japanese officers for torturing American POWs. The torture – water boarding. Why was it wrong for the Japanese but for OK the Bush/Cheney administration?

Should we adhere to a higher standard or are we going to be the same as those we profess to deplore? If holding people indefinitely without charges and sending them to9 remote location to people that will mistreat them horribly is wrong for totalitarian regimes, is it right for anyone else to do it?

Reply to  James Smith
11 years ago

The torture was well beyond water boarding as I understand it James. While water boarding was one of the tortures there were many, many more that were far, far worse, including murder, which is the reason Japanese POW guards were executed.

Reply to  Professor Mike
11 years ago

Then that definitely makes water boarding OK? Give me an hour to water board anyone and I will have them confessing to the crucifixion and anything else I choose.

Torture is torture and the USA should be above that. It doesn’t work because after a time, a person will tell you anything you want to hear to make it stop. That’s been proven for as long as it has been used.

Reply to  James Smith
11 years ago

You’ll get no argument from me James. Just lifting the fog of history for a moment. Thanks 🙂

Reply to  James Smith
11 years ago

Nonsense. Everyone is an interrogator. Everyone is an expert. Yah right!

Hear this: torture works and works as it should in the right hands. There’s a time to start and a time to stop. Don’t have us up the arse with this pompous “thou shalt not” tosh.

Fer the sakes of the lord above. Get your head out your arse and stop acting like you know what yer talking about…Get in the bloody game.

Bill Formby
Reply to  Fartheeaway
11 years ago

Screw you Fartheeaway. I will tell you that information taken under torture is not reliable, if you get any information at all. As James pointed out, a man, or woman, of courage will tell you what he or she thinks you want to hear, not necessarily the truth about anything. The first lesson taught in survival school in the old Marines was that they were probably going to kill you any way so at least die with the satisfaction of knowing you sent them down a blind alley.
Ask yourself, how many captured U.S. soldiers actually gave the enemy useful information?

Reply to  Fartheeaway
10 years ago

And your “expert” credentials are?

Tell you what. Let me have you alone for an hour and you’ll confess to anything I choose and sign a document swearing it is true.

You know absolutely nothing about torture and seem to have the integrity of a wolf in a hen house.

11 years ago

Dresden, Nagasaki and Hiroshima was then. This is now.

I’m not disagreeing exactly – you may be right Joe. You may well be right. Certainly we have to ask ‘how do we stop terrorists if we can’t stop those financing terrorism?’

I just cry for the innocents that will die if and when we do, as people of my like mindedness probably cried for the innocents of Dresden etc.

I’m not saying it is wrong because I can’t say that. I don’t know.

I just think it is wrong because the children in Tehran aren’t guilty anymore than the children of Dresden weren’t – not to mention Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

Are we really better than ‘them’ if we obliterate their children?

Are we really better than Kim Jong-un in North Korea if we obliterate an entire town, city or, indeed, country?

Kim Jong-un thinks he’s right and we think we’re right. We think he’s wrong and he, I assume, thinks we’re wrong.

Clearly he’s wrong because he’s a nutter but not all of North Korea are nutters. They’re mainly frightened and downtrodden. Is that enough to kill them all?

You may be right Joe.

I just hope against hope you aren’t.

I’m so so glad I’m not called Solomon because I haven’t the judgement to know.

…and whilst I’m worrying about it we just got nuked to oblivion….oops (sorry…if I’m entirely serious for too long I just get depressed)

Joe Hagstrom
11 years ago

I see nothing low about punishing terrorists and their enablers. We had no problem firebombing Dresden in WWII Norman. Or Nuking Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

Joe Hagstrom
11 years ago

Just who exactly in the world respects and loves America for being the nation that takes the high road Norman?

Reply to  Joe Hagstrom
11 years ago

Brits do Joe, because you do try to take the high road. Not always exactly the right way maybe but America and Americans are much loved in Britain because of our similarities and our differences.

Britain looks to America because we’ve never forgotten that, without you we wouldn’t even be here.

I know WWII was a long time ago but, despite the incredible courage and audacity of the Brits (and Poles and Free French etc etc) who stood virtually alone for so long, without America, ultimately we would have gone down to Nazi terrany.

America saved us and we’ve never forgotten – and never will.

America is far from perfect Joe as can be said of Britain and pretty much every country in the world. You are just a wee bit closer to it than many though and that counts for something.

I sympathise with the ‘revenge’ outlook’ – if my own family fell victim to these shits I’d want revenge and bugger civilisation but, unless we have suffered personal loss then we have to rise above them.

America can and does and Britain follows suit.

You might not be perfect but we’ll follow your lead any day mate.

Remember. We’re better than ‘them’.

Aren’t we?

11 years ago

“why didn’t Reagan turn Tehran into a parking lot?”

Probably because he realised that living in Tehran didn’t necessarily make you a bad person and, by turning it into a ‘parking lot’ many millions of innocents would have died.

There’s enough ‘innocents’ dying without the west killing more mate.

They kill, we kill, they kill, we kill – I know the world is overpopulated but it has to end somewhere!

Mind you…blowing each other up is preferable to slaughtering animals so maybe you do have a point mate…

Joe Hagstrom
11 years ago

Countries operate on a different moral standard than individuals. The fair solution is as I laid out. Not an invasion which gives punks easy access to Americans to kill. But a few well placed missiles. The punks who finance these jokers from the safety of their palaces or royal families, knowing they’re now in the line of fire, would be far more likely to behave themselves.

Marsha Woerner
11 years ago

I wish I knew WHERE I stood on the question of revenge! The simple way would be to say “Yes they harmed me (well, my country), so I’ll (or my country will) get rid of them!” But is that really “fair”? What about all of the innocents who get harmed? Is there a “fair” solution?
LIFE’S NOT FAIR!

Bill Formby
11 years ago

Joe, while it does sound good to wipe the world clean of the evil doers it really isn’t practical. Just as with Iraq where a large portion of the people did not support Saddam, a large portion of people in Iran do not support the Iranian regime. I do believe it is time we start taking a hard look at who we are supporting with our dollars though. I am tired of fighting someone and then feeling like we have to rebuild their country for them just so they can become American haters.

11 years ago

Fire begets fire, or so someone said, and I’m a big supporter of REVENGE. I’m with you Joe.

Joe Hagstrom
11 years ago

Well said James. And as their friend I think it only friendly we help them get more parking.

11 years ago

Do you mean “self-illuminating” parking lots?

But the Saudis are our “friends.” The fact that many of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis and my have had financial and moral support from other Saudis is not important. The fact that they have another repressive Islamic regime is not important. The fact that they are still in the 15th century when it comes to tolerance and equal rights for all is not important. They are our “friends.” That’s important.

Joe Hagstrom
11 years ago

Turning the mansions of terrorist supporters and the government buildings of terrorist supporters is more what I had in mind.

2000 years ago a Roman citizen could walk virtually anywhere in the empire the punishment for messing with them was so severe. Life is rough for sure at Guantanimo. But it’s far better than being dead.
I fully support helping terrorists in their quest to become martyrs. They can get in line and gun nuts can shoot them all day long. Provided their guns are legal and the owners have been properly backgound checked of course. They go to their heaven and gun nuts get to shoot their guns. A good deal all around.

Rachael
11 years ago

I’m not sure turning other countries into wastelands is the answer Joe.

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