Do you Hate Muslims? Suffer Little Children to Come Unto Me..
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Many people choose to buy into myths which dehumanize a perceived enemy. Vietnamese were perceived as less than human. No less than the Declaration of Independence immortalizes my people as “Merciless Indian Savages”. Filipinos were said to be descendants of apes when we fought them following the Spanish-American War. Americans were told they had tails. So with our current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the myth of 72 Virgins helps to justify the deaths of our enemy. As with the above rationales for fighting a less than human enemy, it too is spun from half-truths, misconceptions and lies.
Anyone with their mind already made up can find sites which reinforce negative perceptions about any topic. Anti-union people can go to union-busters sites to get their “facts” about unions. Right wingers can go to sites proving there’s no such thing as Global Warming. Conspiracy theorists can go to sites proving George Bush personally planned the 9/11 attacks. Same with Islam, there is no end of internet sites which seek to dehumanize the followers of this religion.
Point is, people all over this world have their own beliefs. Some good, some bad. Most people basically want to feed their families and grow old watching their children prosper. Some people allow their hatred to cloud their perception of these basic facts. Some have an agenda to spread their hate with. Some are merely followers who buy into what they’ve been told to think. Regardless of the basis for their hate, the hate itself becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. One can reduce this to the absurd by comparing it to the world of sports. A football ideologue may insist an opposing quarterback constantly throws interceptions. The quarterback in question may go three games without getting picked off. He may set a record for consecutive completions. However, once he does throw a pick, the ideologue will rejoice “Aha! I told you so. He ALWAYS throws interceptions”. So there you have it.
Please do ponder the pictures of the children of the “savage Muslims,” and as you do remember the words of United States Army Colonel Chivington, at Sand Creek, during the Indian wars, as he justified the slaughter of innocents….nits make lice. Hate has many justifications and it has none…
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72 virgins, bah. Virgins don’t know what the hell they’re doing. If Zombie Jesus passed out electric guitars and a Marshall stack instead of harps, he’d have more followers.
[insert fart joke here]
Last night I reread all these posts, trying to looking at everyone statements from a completely unformed opinion. I have to say that…..well… writers, this is one hell of a fine debate.
Each person made some very intelligent points and very eloquently expressed their ideas. THIS IS WHAT IS MISSING IN WASHINGTON TODAY!! If you watch some of the hearings, they are not debating, they are name calling, speech making, spewing party dogma. They do not once reflect on what the other person has said, answer why they think their idea is different or defend their position. Congress would do well to try to at least try some of these methods.
I also have to commend Oso. Whether or not I agree or disagree with his opinion doesn’t change the fact that he was man enough to apologize for his anger. To me, that tops out what about 20 percent of the population would do right there.
Krell,
Thank you.
Oso is right that it would be idiocy to kill oneself just for the reward of a harp alone (or whatever bling they’re offering). But if you were to kill yourself for a cause, with the fringe benefit of the harp thrown in, then that changes things. There were Christian martyrs in history, many persecuted, some who died for causes they believed in, but who could console themselves with the thought that their afterlife will make up for it. So the idea of martyrdom for a cause is certainly not new.
Even now factions in the US are making scary noises about Armageddon and the End of Times like it is an OK thing because they’ll miss it- being Raptured and all. And you know what- by the evidence of all the militias “preparing for battle” I am betting they aren’t going without a fight.
I just have to say this. Not to offend or anything, but out of a sense of compassion for a would-be Muslim terrorist.
No matter what heavenly reward awaited him after he died- even if it was just a giant pig farting out rainbows as it sang a lullaby- I can totally see a believer “fighting the good fight” against an enemy perceived (and often justly so!) to be as evil as the USA. If I were a religious person living in that war-torn shithole, I would cling to the meager comfort my faith gave me and pray like crazy- because any afterlife has got to be a better option than watching my kids and neighbors die of radiation poisoning or malnutrition.
Now if I chose to die by blowing myself up in an area containing helpless little kids, then I wouldn’t even deserve the rainbow farting pig.
And I’d LOVE to start a whole new thread on the eternal fates of those Beckerheads and Limbauggers!
Mother Hen,
Now the giant farting pig thing-I do buy that! Might be a selling point to Fox folks.hmmmmmm.
infidel,
i’d kindly request you to read my 7:17 reply to all.
OK,in case anyone is interested-72 virgins-based on a third hand account that Muhammad spoke of Heaven as being a place where there were huge domes made of pearls with 80,000 servants and 72 houri (supernatural creatures with beautiful eyes,like Jinn or Angels). A Muslim suggested to me that he believes this in the same way that us Christians believe we will be sitting on clouds playing harps when we go to Heaven.
According to the story Muhammad was speaking of the wonders of Heaven for those who believe. All believers will be rewarded in Heaven.Period.
Those who are martyred,dying for the faith means an immediate ride to Heaven and the ability to intercede on behalf of their relatives on Judgment Day.That’s it.They get to the Big Game quicker and can ask for clemency for family.
The wonders of Heaven would be for all whether one dies in ones sleep or one dies as a martyr for the faith.
There are Muslims who are anxious to die for their faith, to be martyrs. Good or bad, that’s how some believe.To go to Heaven immediately.
To say a Muslim would choose to die to get 72 virgins in Heaven is like saying a Christian would choose to die to get a free harp. I suppose one could argue that mathematically there are people stupid enough to believe 72 virgins or a free harp awaited them in Heaven by dying bravely, after all there are people who of their own free will choose to watch Fox News.Logically however, anyone of either faith with even the slightest exposure to their respective religion would intuitively know it was a stupid idea that violated every principle of their religion.
Infidel said it’s not a myth, on that we can agree. A myth implies a certain historical belief. So technically he is right. It’s actually what as a kid we called caca. OK? It’s caca. 72 virgins is caca.
To ‘hate’ muslims per se is just bizarre.
In England we dislike Islam very much because it is intrusive on our way of life and many muslims have no inclination to ‘fit in’ with us – the indigenous people. For that reason they bring a lot of dislike on themselves and deservedly so.
Hate, however, is too strong a word for the average muslim over here. The fundamentalists are another story.
We, the British people, need to take control of the muslim population and advise them in very strong terms that they can only remain if they adapt to England and cease to be intrusive on our way of life.
Respecting their faith is one thing, allowing it to infiltrate and change our ways is quite another and, frankly, that is what is happening as I type.
The alternative is ‘Yugoslavia’.
It will happen.
You made sense here Dinner man.
Don’t worry, I won’t ever wonder how my posts effect anyone 😉
All,
I take no issue with atheism, nor do I take issue with people equating religious teachings with fantasy. I share the disgust with the excesses of religion. Sexual abuse and coverups.stoning of women.genocide.
I have written several posts ridiculing Christianity, and will continue to do so. And I hope you all will continue as we have in the past. Please, NOBODY think “oh how will this affect Oso or Truth”. Keep on what you’re doing, OK. Serious as a heart attack here. God’s Truth 🙂
Infidel,
my whole issue here is with you. Your posts and comments are mean-spirited. There’s an element of ” Everybody, look at the funny foreign-looking guy” in everything you write about religion.
At this point I’ll only say this regarding the 72 virgins deal-I’ve read the Quran cover to cover, I’ve spoken to devout people who all express puzzlement over this and unanimously view it as an American thing. But you guys can believe what you want.Another post, another time.
This is an incredible site, and Mike doesn’t censor us so I encourage you to write as you always have. It’s a free country and an amazingly free site.
Mother Hen,
I apologize to you for overreacting to something you feel is correct. I was wrong, and I’m sorry. Anything else said, would cheapen what is a true apology.
Al Osorio
Thank you.
I do hope I never come across as mean spirited. The culture of violence and repression of women is alone the problem I have with Islam.I don’t know any Muslims personally, and wouldn’t even know where to find any around here, but if they treated their wife and kid like equals I would have no issues with them.
The number of virgins thing that has been widely circulated in the American media is truly not in the Koran (but I didn’t know until I looked for it, finding the number isn’t specific), but it appears in another canonical book, which like Truth said, likely distorts the original message. I’m no scholar on the subject and I don’t pretend to be.
I am 100% in agreement with Truth- the Golden Rule is represented in almost every culture in some way.
As for Infidel- I can see how he could come across as patronizing, but I doubt he has a mean-spirited intent. Maybe if he cracked a few fart jokes along with his message it wouldn’t come across as heavy handed. (hint hint). I wish I had half the wit and lucidity as he, but my own mind tends to get clotted up with sophomoric insult humor.
Thanks Mother Hen,
I live in Northern California, my kids grew up with a lot of Muslims.Most of them Muslim in the way most Christians are Christian-go to church on Easter Sunday and maybe Christmas, y’know?
I think a major part of their problem is the tribal male-dominated society, and they use the religion as a way to keep things unchanged. Christianity or Judaism too I think, people can either use religion as a positive or use it like a tribal club over the head of those they want to keep in their place. And unfortunately that’s usually women.
I guess what I’m saying here is you’re right and we’re pretty much in agreement!
I have a tendency to lapse into illogical anger and outright idiocy sometimes, so I thank you again for your nice response.
Your posts and comments are mean-spirited. There’s an element of ” Everybody, look at the funny foreign-looking guy” in everything you write about religion.
You’re reading your own racial obsessions into what I write. I’ve pointed out repeatedly that when I attack belief systems, I’m talking about belief systems. It has nothing to do with race or what people look like.
The 72 virgins thing is referenced in the Koran (not a specific number, I don’t think — that comes fromt the Hadîth) and is part of the traditional belief system.
All religions are irrational and contain disgusting elements. People in the Middle East are just as capable of believing stupid, silly, and dangerous things as people in Mississippi. I attack religion largely with ridicule because I consider that the most effective way of doing so. I focus more on religion than on politics because I think it’s a more fundamental problem; I aim mostly at Christianity and Islam because they’re the most immediate threats. Mike was well aware of what I write about and how I write about it when he invited me to contribute here.
The religious doctrines have been twisted for them over the generations. How many times has the Koran been translated, interpreted and rewritten to fit the ideas of whoever was doing the writing? Or The Bible.
I take neither literally. I am am content with the ultimate message. Love God and love thy neighbor as thyself. Messages that are as old as humanity. If you choose not to believe they come from God I respect that. Even if it was man that came up with those two ideals, they are good ideas and I thank God we thought of them.
How many times has the Koran been translated, interpreted and rewritten to fit the ideas of whoever was doing the writing?
Just as an FYI, those issues don’t arise with the Koran in the same way as with the Bible. Only the Arabic form of the Koran is considered authoritative by Muslims, and only one version in Arabic exists. There are ambiguities and contradictions, but there are also standard generally-accepted interpretations, and an established way of dealing with contradictions (“abrogation”, whereby the later revelation supersedes the earlier).
How that one standard version of the Koran was compiled and when is open to a lot of debate, among Western scholars, but that doesn’t affect the fact that Muslims consider it authoritative.
Your problem is with dicks who twist religion to fit their agendas and ideas. I share that view with you Infidel. I also think you do a disservice to all those of faith,Islamic, Christian or other, who are sincere and pray for God’s intervention to help those suffering and in need. Or those that feel they had a calling and want to serve God through their works here on Earth.
I am as disgusted with perverts that used the priesthood to prey on children. I am disgusted with anyone who uses a position of authority and those that try to cover for them. You’ve been crossing a line between outrage at those whom deserve it and blanketly condemning all who happen to be of the same faith or denomination as those who’ve used religion to prey on the weak.
Although an Atheist I appreciate and respect the spirit of your comment Truth.
Truth 101 — While I don’t want to re-ignite an argument here and don’t really have the time to address the issues raised by your comment in the detail it deserves, a couple of points:
I’m not outraged at, nor condemning, people (except those individuals who have, in fact committed actual crimes — child molestation, terrorism, abuse of women, or whatever). I don’t regard rank-and-file religious people as the enemy. I regard religion as the enemy. The problem is the ideologies inhabiting people’s heads, not the people. See the difference? This is part of why I emphasize the importance of people like the ex-Muslims I mentioned.
While I understand that you see it differently, in a lot of cases, the criminals are not, in fact, twisting the religious doctrines. In the case of molesting priests, yes — obviously child molestation is not advocated by the Bible. But in the case of people like bin Laden, their actions are consistent with the relevant Islamic doctrines. Bush said Islam was a religion of peace which was being misused by extremists, but he was mistaken.
Excuse me, but Paul McDonald DID always throw interceptions. 752 in 1984, to be exact. Sheesh. Get your facts straight, hippie.
Granted, it’s probably a bit far off, but I’m contemplating taking bets on who the next primary Other is going be. Pick the Chinese, fine, but you ain’t going to win any of your money back.
Well, Randal, you got my vote for the 2010 non sequitur award.
Of course there are examples in every society of atrocities committed against humanity. Christians slaughtering Muslims in Bosnia, Muslims slaughtering Christians in Iran, Indians with the Manifest Destiny, Spanish against the Inca empire.
I think the point with Mother Hen’s post is that ANY BELIEF SYSTEM that doesn’t respect the basic human rights of women and children is something that can’t be condoned. But BELIEF IS NOT THE SAME THING AS RACE. There are women in the Middle East that are quite courageous in fighting for rights and basic human dignity. Basic human rights such as not getting beaten in the streets for not covering your face.
Human rights are being violated in all countries today. That goes for Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and the United States. And I think that Mother Hen would be the first to speak up about it. After all, wasn’t Mother Hen’s first post about the use of Depleted Uranium and the detrimental effects it had on Iraq children?
Oso, do you really think that it was fair to imply that Mother Hen condones the atrocities committed against the Iraqi children? If you complain about a woman getting stoned to death in the Middle East, does that automatically mean you are for the war in Iraq? Does this mean that reports made by Amnesty International about human rights violations in the Middle East mean that Amnesty International is for the war?
I really don’t have any knowledge of the “72 Virgin” thing, but I do know that history shows that countries will dehumanize another country inhabitants, in effect creating sub-humans, to psychologically make them easier to kill. Examples come to mind such as Japs, Krauts, Slopes, Commie Reds, etc. But the United States is not the only country to engage in this behavior.
From what I have read of your posts and also Gwen’s posts, my impression is that you both are very caring humanitarians with great concern and empathy for the plight of others, here and in other regions of the world.
Perhaps that would make a excellent post, Oso. Write up something about where the “72 Virgins” came from. Present your case by writing down the facts to show people the error in their thinking. Bringing the truth to people is the light and the way for intelligent people to decide.
(…except for Cthulhu and his minions like Yog and Shub)
But BELIEF IS NOT THE SAME THING AS RACE.
Exactly so. I made that point in a comment here. It’s outrageous to compare opposition to an ideology to bigotry against a race.
Race is an immutable (and unimportant) trait. A person who supports a bad ideology can change. Some of the toughest and most outspoken opponents of Islam are people who were raised Muslim and left it.
When Islam was a great military power centuries ago, it did invade and occupy other countries. It is not powerful enough to do so now, but it certainly viciously oppresses internal minorities — and, as you point out, women.
That being said, Infidel753, my opinion of the wars over there is that we need to get out NOW! A lot of innocent people have been killed and maimed, the number is probably over a million right now. Oso made a good point in his comment. Families over there just want to watch their children grow up, be able to feed their families, be able to make a decent wage. We wouldn’t be over there, concerned about establishing democracy, if they weren’t sitting on millions of barrels of oil. “National Interests” and all that.
No, this posting was obviously intended as a response to things I (and in one comment, Mother Hen) had said in previous comment threads. It claims that a factually-accurate statement I made is false, it tries to confuse the issue by conflating opposition to an ideology with racial or ethnic prejudice (which is intellectually dishonest), and it uses the indisputable suffering of civilians in wartime to taint by association, and thus to try to silence, my objections to Islamic ideology by depicting it as hateful or dehumanizing. I am not going to let those things slide.
All these things remain true regardless of one’s stance on the Iraq and Afghan wars. I don’t believe an immediate withdrawal is the best option in either case, but it’s a separate issue from the points in the above paragraph.
Thank you Krell, and Infidel for articulating pretty much exactly what I have been trying to say. I thought I was being articulate too, but as I gather from the personal attacks leveled at me that I didn’t make my point clear enough.
Obviously my writing an entire post about the subject of American military injustices to Iraqi children isn’t enough to qualify me as a humanitarian. I don’t give a flying fucknut about what religion people are, as long as the helpless among them are treated with dignity and decency. A simple request! I am the first to point out and act against any examples of brutality, abuse, or degradation I see against those who are powerless to stop it, like children, the elderly, animals, and oftentimes women.
I act because I don’t pray (if wishing for a positive outcome with all of my heart counts as prayer though, perhaps I am wrong.) I have nothing against people who do, but as an appeal to a higher power I find it pointless. It’s just that I feel ridiculous entreating a deity to intervene in a situation that this deity, being all powerful, should not have allowed to occur in the first place.
I wouldn’t generally condemn Christians as a whole- given that I have multiple treasured friends who are Christian, and family in the ministry. They are the best examples of what a Christian should be. They consistently earn my respect because they do not just pray for the poor, they go out and help build homes for them, actively raise money to help pay a hospital bill, take in a virtual stranger who is down and out and has nowhere to live. I suspect that they would be doing these same charitable acts even if they were some other faith, or no faith at all.
I did mention that the fundamentalist factions of both Islam and Christianity have ideas which are antithetical to human rights, and current events demonstrate that these factions are growing stronger and obtaining (or have obtained) positions of power. My Christian friends and family (liberals all) become quite irate at the injustices and idiocy of the Fundie extremists. They blog or post links on FB to garner notice and support for their causes.
In contrast, I notice that rather than coming out against these extremists with a moderate and reasonable voice, ad hominem attacks are instead made at Infidel and myself for pointing out and objecting to the extremism in the first place.
“…nits make lice?” Are you kidding me? These Iraqi kids deserve compassion, help, medical care! America has no business there at all! Especially not if they’re going to be spreading radioactive shrapnel all over the place! I don’t think there is a single reader at this forum who would think such a thing about those children. Especially not me!
There is no doubt in my mind at all that Oso and Truth are just as anti-war as Infidel and I are; that both abhor crimes against children and women, just as we obviously do. Neither of us has suggested that either are hypocrites, bad examples of their faith, or themselves extreme thinkers. Their religion brings them comfort, and I am happy for them.
Most spiritual paths lead to enlightened or progressive thinking eventually- at least that is the optimist in me speaking. Infidel and I simply do not need religion to provide us a moral compass. But I am not condemning those who do need it. I am more than a little insulted that we aren’t accorded the same consideration in return.
Mother Hen,
Please accept my apology for overreacting. I had no right to infer hatred on your part. No excuses.
Krell, good point. It was unfair of me to equate Mother Hen’s beliefs with atrocities. I was overcome by anger and it takes me days to calm down. I will apologize to her.
Always always… standing beside you Oso. Well said.
Heart wrenching. Good post Oso. We would serve ourselves well to remind ourselves daily that us Earthlings are on the same team.
The 72 virgins thing is not a myth.
The fact that Muslims suffer in war does not change the fact that Islam is a hateful, dangerous, totalitarian ideology, nor does it dehumanize anyone to point this out.
One could just as easily have used pictures of victims of Allied bombing of Germany during World War II to try to silence people who spoke out about the evils of Nazism. Either way it’s a non sequitur.
True, the 72 virgins thing is not a falsehood; it is, however, a traditional religious/spiritual story (myth) exploited by some to help justify the brutal occupation of Muslim countries.
The Nazi Germany analogy would be more apt if Hitler’s Germany were invaded and occupied by countries to whom it posed no threat.
Infidel, the same could be said about Christianity. Have you forgotten the crusades, the inquistion, witch hangings. It continues today you can visit any of a number of sites that condone hatred and violence in the name of Christ. Evanglist want to dominate the world also. Zealots are zealots they come in all shape and sizes.
Oh, I do say the same about Christianity, and have for a long time.
This is powerful, overwhelmingly so. Every picture tells a story. Thanks Oso.
I’m with you on this one.
I oscillate between anger fatigue over this stuff. Thanks for the pithy, vituperative post, Oso. I couldn’t agree more.
um … anger *and* fatigue