Oil leaks and a crazy plan that just might work
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Call it a quirk, call it a personality defect. But when I hear of a problem, especially when it is an engineering problem, it will just get stuck in my head like a bad Barry Manilow song.
I cannot get rid of that inner brain demon until I at least give it a shot. Well, here is my shot at this oil leak.
Before hand, let me say that I am not a petroleum, geological, or even a mechanical engineer. It may be the stupidest thing ever to be sketched, not taking in account the…..whatever.
But what the hell, at least it will be out there.
The problem is stabbing the hole from 1 mile away, remotely, with robots. So you need something with a relatively small diameter. Also the pressures involved are immense, and we have to assume that the flow of oil needs to still be there, flowing to the surface.
This idea is to have a pipe within another pipe. Pipe is one resource that is readily available. The diameters of the pipe can be scaled accordingly.The outer pipe to inner pipe is used to inject mud down to the sliding bulkhead. This applies tremendous pressure to the bulkhead, forcing the compression of the Vitron body. Compressing to a oval shape, it expands to a much larger diameter, pressing a seal against the well head pipe walls. It will also multiply the force applied by the mud several times over, so you could well have a compression of well over 30k PSI. Adjustment of the lateral force of the seal can be controlled by adjusting the injected Mud pressure.
Once it is sealed on the outside, the inner pipe allows the oil to be pumped to the surface and into a tanker.
Thoughts???
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The fractured sea floor idea is probably right which is why I think the liquid nitrogen idea has merit. Deep Horizons engineers said they reviewed and found it without merit.
I’ve heard the pressures in the pipe are 30,000 PSI. I’ve also heard 50,000 PSI. I suspect they don’t know or it fluctuates.
I heard that it is a 7 inch diameter pipe. It seems to me that inserting pipe 3000-4000 feet into the pipe/ shaft, you should be able to freeze the oil and stop it or slow it down significantly.
The nitrogen would have to be at high enough pressure to keep up with the flow of oil.
That might not be possible. What they are doing now isn’t working either.
My information source has it as fluctuating between 10k to 14k PSI and the bore casing is 21″ ID. And that is from a source that is about as close to the rig as you can get.
The BOP is only rated operating pressure of 15,000, so I don’t know where these wild numbers are coming from.
With that kind of pressure, I don’t know if the nitrogen is going to be able to deliver a substantial decrease in temperature.
But I will be the first to say that I am not the person to ask on that. It would require extensive computer modeling to determine if it was feasible.
At this point, they really aren’t trying anything new. Just going with the relief well as the long term fix.
I hope the relief well works for the sake of the gulf and the world.
Since they’re have problems with the dome freezing up and clogging the siphon hose, it seems to me that liquid nitrgoen would have the desired effect.
It would seem that the refrigeration principle would work. When a fluid or coolant is going from an area of high pressure to a lower pressure that it would cool rapidly.
I would like to see engineers form Sandia or Batelle working on this too. I think the oil companies have tunnel vision and what they are doing isn’t working.
But Phil, think about it. You would be pumping nitrogen against something that is flowing out at somewhere around 10,000 psi, a lot more if you were to insert it into the bore pipe.
You can never get the high to low pressure change that is needed to cool off with.
You would have to pump the nitrogen with at least 10,000 PSI to get it into the pipe or the oil is going to flow up your nitrogen feed pipe.
So you got 10k pressure up from the oil and 10k pressure down from the nitrogen pump.
Your nitrogen will be compressed with 20k pressure. It will never cool off to vapor pressure.
Krell/Phil:
The idea of cooling down crude oil using liquid nitrogen dawned on me this morning while attending Church Service. Our pastor mentioned the spill as one of the catastrophe presently plaguing our great nation. I Googled the subject “can liquid nitrogen freeze crude oil” and came about a few discussions. Your exchanges caught my interest.
Would a stack of multiple check valves mounted at the tip of a delivery device mitigate the problem of overcoming the internal pressure produced by the surging oil?
If so, what if a steady feed of liquid nitrogen was pumped at multiple depths and controlled stages inside the well?
First stage is right below the mouth of the well’s entry point. Succeeding stages can be located say at 12″ inch intervals. The key is to choke the entry point to reduce pressure on the pipe itself. Then gradually freezing succeeding stages until a substantial column of frozen crude/debris is formed. Once the flow is halted a sealing material can be pumped to plug the hole permanently.
Thats exactly what I thought to, if the containment dome is freezing up, why not use that principle, at multiple levels down inside the well shaft.
Pressurizing a liquid heats it up, releasing the pressure cools it rapidly. There is a way to make this work.
Nice general idea, but insufficient for the situation.
You say that your device generates over 30,000 psi pressure.
Unfortunately, the pressure of the oil in the well is over 70,000 psi.
Triple the pressures generated by your device and you’ll have something. (I know, easier said than done.)
My opinion right now is that it is a fractured seafloor so it is leaking at several places now, not just at the well head.
So any kind of simple plug like that is not going to work.
They have to be able to get down low enough so that a single point can stop everything.
Went to BP web idea sight .This sight is a fraud ! BP is little interested in ideas to shut down that leak . I built a well capping device in 1991 scale was 21 to 1 inch heald 3000 psi no problems was for well fires ,it worked well ,however it was not built by insiders ,Today they all have the same amount of interest in the poor folks ideas .
If you are right, that is a sad state of affairs. Were you able to get anywhere with your design?
Interesting. I submitted this idea to the BP site. They sent the first email saying that it has been chosen for technical review. Got a second one about 2 weeks later, saying that they already had a similar design that was already tested so no thanks. I believe that you are right. Just a PR campaign for BP. They are trying to divert or control all information on this. Buying google search terms, creating red herrings, etc.
But they are finding out you cannot control everything. Information is going to “leak” out.
Sounds good to me. When do we start. Fire up the Cube!
Can welding be done at this depth?
Yes, by robot obviously.
I’m no scientician, but why waste precious materials when DC and Wall Street is flush with disposable jackasses? Stuff ’em all in the hole et voilà, instant plug.
Hey, watch it! We paid good money for those Jackasses!
the new sport for 2010 will be sport oiling.
who can stack up up more oil and what can we sell it for,,
it seems that they removed a pipe that was successful at getting some oil sucked up. they removed it when they tried pushing drilling mud thru.
why cant they simply have 15 or 20 of those sucking devices hanging down there sucking oil right out of the water?… into tankers?.. we need a lot of suckers.
..sucking..
Your idea sucks! No actually that’s a good thing.
What do you think of freezing the oil with liquid or near solid hydrogen? ( Nitrogen slush )
@ Phil You might have something there. I have heard of nitrogen plugs used for other things but not on such a grand scale. You would need to find the answers for a couple of things though…
What is the temp of the oil as it is coming out of the well?
What is the pressure of the oil coming out in addition to the 2300 PSI water pressure? Would it form a non-homogeneous nitrogen crystal lattice or even what is called a nitrogen diamond?
Is it possible to cool a large enough mass with even coolant dispersion to form a uniform solid plug and not create a monster of a partially frozen plug with a 100 pin hole leaks. What would be the effects of the methane crystals formed on the mechanical integrity of the plug.
It definitely has possibility if those hurdles are met. If anything it would make the viscosity of the oil so thick as to slow the leak dramatically. Something to think about when waiting on the relief wells.
There could be water in the crude oil, and water, I believe has to expand slightly to form covalent geometric bonds, or hex rings. I’m not sure what 2400 PSI does to the mechanics of that?
I’m thinking that liquid or near solid nitrogen would over come the pressure effects.
I have read that solid or slushy nitrogen is a better coolant than liquid nitrogen because liquid nitrogen insulates itself too well with ultra-cold gas.
pressure only minimally affects the freezing temperature of water, and elements in crude oil should react the same under pressure.
Is the crude hot when it’s in the pipe or shaft? Does it cool quickly as it exits the vent or leak?
I did talk to a guy who works for Transocean who thinks the idea has merit.
This well wass never meant for production, it was a survey well, to messure the size of the field.
Recovering the oil is no the point, as I understood.
If you use Nitrogen slush to freeze the crude oil, it wouldn’t hold permanently, and you’d still put some sort of plug on top of it.
I have some question about freezing oil at those pressures, I know stuff doesn’t boil, but I believe it still freezes. Can anyone help me out with that.
Phil Bickel – Columbus Ohio
Same idea, but with a much smaller pipe inserted into the well shaft, pump in liquid nitrogen or a nitrogen slush, it is about 351F or 191C. Most of the componets in crude oil will freeze at about -50F.
Once you get a plug going, pump in concrete or mud to seal the shaft ahead of the freeze plug.
Small pipe is readily available, and nitrogen is very cheap and transportable.
I was looking at oil drum and doing a search (upper left) but I guess I don’t understand your theory well enough to do a good search for it.
Oil Drum is a pretty good source for energy info, lot of posts and discussions on the BP disaster from an academic angle.
Actually not much to it. My illustration is not the best. This is where the expert skill of Mother Hen would come in. She is amazing!
Think of a larger pipe within a smaller pipe. Both of these pipes are going to the surface.
Now the picture shows a blue object that is the sliding bulkhead. That bulkhead can slide up and down on the inner pipe. Now when mud is pumped in between the inner and outer pipe from the surface, it travels along until it start to press against that blue bulkhead.
The bulkhead slides down and applies pressure to the compressible Vitron body. Vitron is just a trade name for rubber like material that isn’t going to dissolve with oil.
When the bulkhead squeezes the Vitron, it compresses and becomes shorter but also fatter. The compressability of this material is actually amazing.
The diameter of the Vitron will increase 5x or so when squeezed hard enough. Believe me, a mile of mud pumped with a 30,000 hp pump on the ship will give it pressure.
This will press on the wellhead pipe with an extreme amount of force along with the inner pipe as well. You can see I put a ghost faded image of the Vitron compressed on the picture.
Now the Wellhead pipe is sealed to everything but the inner pipe, which is now used to pump oil to the ship. If they ever need to remove this device, they just pump the mud back out and it will go back to it’s original shape, allowing the removal.
Krell
Good idea. May I add a little something, consider a product called Jet plug instead of the Mudd. As soon as this product make contact with water it reacts and solidifies. They could try it on a small scale. I’ve used this stuff six feet under water sealing a very large pipe, over three feet round. What the hell do they have to lose. Krell contact me if you wish as I’ve also found a machine made in the Netherlands that would be of great help in cleaning up the spill. I’m trying to get more info on it.
Language barrier….
Tim, I am going to check out this “Jet Plug”. A 36″ pipe plugged underwater is very impressive!
Exactly right, what do they have to lose? Waiting until September or October for a fix just doesn’t seem to be an option.
Thank you Tim, you have made my day!
You guys have made my day. How cool is this? Two friends from MMA working together to perhaps help solve an international crisis. How cool is that?
Well you don’t have any dummies here writing. Or do you ;)? Hmmm, I am going to go ahead and take the fifth on that.
Like Mike said, seems too obvious. But I submitted it to BP and a couple of other places with a written description.
It may not make sense, but it was like a little therapy session for me.
I’ll bet electricity didn’t make sense at first too, but look where that is now. All it takes is that one idea, then Krell is richer than shit because of big oil. Look at it that way, it will make you happier 🙂
I just wish we could get into using different methods for fuel, before we harm the planet and piss of mother earth any more that we have been doing already. I just hope, it isn’t too late.
Wouldn’t that be ironic, Jess?
If you are rich as shit, can farts be used as tips?
Nope not really, the wait staff would probably not appreciate it ;). They depend on those tips since they don’t make very much money. Good luck though, I hope they at least give you a reply for your idea, whether or not it may prove useful to them. Can’t hurt since nothing they are doing seems to be working.
Well, it is not exactly rocket science here. I am sure that something obvious is being overlooked.
But if it will stop the leak…BP, it’s yours! Don’t even need to send me a email back. Just get to it!
Honestly, the mechanics of it confound me… I’m really pretty conceptual… I need the accompanying lecture! I commend you for your efforts and send hopes that you might have something here !!! 🙂
Think of it like squishing a marshmellow between you fingers. Notice how the marshmellow gets shorter but it also gets fatter. The fatter part is what will plug the wellhead pipe.
Skinny to get in the pipe, fatter to plug it.
Far be it from me to say it wouldn’t work. Send it in.
Good question Mike. The force from the oil is negative because it is being pumped up to the surface. Once that pressure is gone the strain on the seal is greatly decreased.
The deep ocean pressure can be eliminated on the outer pipe by allowing water to seep in from the ocean, equalizing the differential. Then when the mud is pumped, the water will be force back out. This may cause a very small leak of mud when it is injected but the hole could be so small as to make the mud leak perhaps a pound of mud a week or so.
Obviously the pressure on the inner pipe is zero because it is open to the ocean as it is being lowered.
You should send this idea to BP. They have a website for smart guys like you to send your ideas.
Send it, they need all the help they can get. I’m getting the gut feeling that they are now blinded by the trees.
Such a simple design as to be obvious one would think. What are the dangers of explosion from the two forces working against each other?