An Essay on the Separation of Church and State

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One belief the Tea Baggers and the rest of the  Radical Right share is the belief in the church and Jesus. I warrant that virtually every one of them, if asked [or not] will volunteer they are “saved.”

an essay on the separation of church and state madmikesamerica

As we watch them protest, demonstrate, and remonstrate,  one would have a hard time finding the forgiveness and compassion that is most often attributed to the persona of the Son of God. If you look at the signs they carry you will see clearly the rabid racism simmering just below the surface and disguised in the clothes of God and religion. During those long dark years of George Bush, our government was infected with religious mania, with many suspecting that religion was actually the motivator for the Iraq war. People with degrees from Billy Bob’s Bible University occupied high office and made decisions that reverberated across the nation. It was a dark and desperate time indeed and I am afraid that not all of the Bible Bangers have been scrubbed from the halls of Congress.

The separation of church and state is one of the most debated issues on the political scene, though it is rarely labeled as such. In fact, it seems more like the debate is over how far religion CAN be integrated into political matters. Check your premises- how many religious symbols or pro-religion ideas can you find in the things around you that are related to the government? Look at any unit of currency- each adamantly declares, “IN GOD WE TRUST”. Even more importantly, how can an organization identified as the “Religious Right” even EXIST in politics?

Also, religion (again, specifically Christianity) is pro-life, which means that abortion is another great sin. Of course, this removes another right- the right to be able to have sex without risk of becoming pregnant, for that pregnancy can be reversed- from women. Furthermore religion places limits on sex itself and judges those who would engage in this most natural of human acts. Under no circumstances is Christianity or other religions benevolent toward man.

The Founding Fathers, when framing the Constitution, had a clear idea of the country they wanted to exist. “Freedom” was the driving force behind them and they realized that any integration of church and state was INIMICAL to freedom. Note the ambiguous use of the word “church”. Quite obviously, the Founding Fathers knew quite well that any theology, no matter what the religion, discriminates against, attacks, and, in a lot of cases, ignores other religions. Such controversy is only generated in one of two ways: Two forces in opposition are clashing, or, varying ideas on the same theme are clashing in the pursuit of a common goal. It obviously cannot be the first.

Every “church” believes in some variation of a god. The Romans, Greeks, Muslims, Egyptians, Taoists, Catholics, Hindus, Christians, and Jews all believe in any number of gods or goddesses. But all of these deities has numerous things in common. For one, these gods all work in mysterious ways, are unknowable, and that we are living because of them and for them. Nonsense! Think, if you will, about the following:

  1. Most of the discrimination that exists today stems from religious beliefs. The best example is the Ku Klux Klan and other such hate groups. These organizations are steeped in Christianity and its symbols. The members of these groups fail to see the contradiction.
  2. Most Christians attempt to “convert” everyone with whom they come in contact. Also, it should be noted, the Bible explicitly denies anyone who follows Christian beliefs to associate with atheists— outright religious profiling.

  3. Who are the loudest voices against gay rights? That’s easy: the Religious Right!

  4. The larger a religion gets, the more oppressive it becomes. One anti-religion or Jesus statement on the radio is adequate grounds for a religious organization to boycott and file suit against that radio station.

  5. The ultimate goal of the Religious Right is complete control over the government, starting with the executive branch (Bush) and extending to the legislative and judicial branches.

For a good example of the horror and fear that would come from a theocracy as Christians want it, read The Crucible by Arthur Miller.

The separation of church and state is the only way society can truly be free. That an organization identified as the “Religious Right” can exist in politics is an outrage and totally opposes the separation that the Founding Fathers had in mind. The only [non] belief that should be allowed to exist in the state- and therefore promote the true laissez-faire spirit is atheism, which is not a religion at all and poses no threat to the freedoms of the land.

I don’t suggest that atheism is the be all and end all when casting about for a solution to this curious conundrum. I only ask that religion be kept out of government. I ask that prayer be prohibited at formal cabinet functions, the “In God We Trust” logo be removed from the dollar bill, and that politicians and political functionaries operate under rules which prevent them from mixing god and government. Jesus belongs in his house, the church, not in mine, the government….MM

This article was originally published here on March 10, 2010

If you are interested in a non-plagiarized essay about the separation of church and state written by a professional writer, check SmartWritingService.com.

About Post Author

Professor Mike

Professor Mike is a left-leaning, dog loving, political junkie. He has written dozens of articles for Substack, Medium, Simily, and Tribel. Professor Mike has been published at Smerconish.com, among others. He is a strong proponent of the environment, and a passionate protector of animals. In addition he is a fierce anti-Trumper. Take a moment and share his work.
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3 years ago

I feel completely satisfied after reading your post,Your posts makes me internally happy and gives me lots of the pleasure.

Jess
12 years ago

@Tricia, I started a new thread, because this one was getting lost up there. ^^^^

Tricia… “And about not injecting your personal opinion, isn’t that what our justice system is about, isn’t that what this comment section has been about?”

Me….Yes, yes it is, however I don’t NEED my personal opinions to be used to punish someone else the way some people who claim religion seem to want. Maybe I should go further with this thought and it may make more sense. As one example, I don’t know if I could make the decision to have an abortion should I ever get pregnant. I would not tell anyone else, my opinion is you should not be afforded that choice, because I think it’s a bad thing, which I don’t for the record. I have no need or desire to push my feelings on the topic onto another person, the way the righteous do as they often do with certain things. Abortion is one thing homosexuality is another, marijuana use and so on.

Tricia…People have different perspectives about issues, otherwise, there would only be one person in a jury instead of twelve.
Me….I would hope when someone sits on a jury, they are looking at facts presented and not counting on religious texts or beliefs to make decisions with 11 other people. The latter has happened by the way, just one more way it encroaches into secular society.

Tricia… And if your opinion doesn’t matter, then why leave comments here?

Me….Coz I like Mike, his band of miscreants here and they allow me the freedom to say whatever I want to say with hardly any censoring. Whether or not my opinion matters, leaves my hands after I type the words I choose to type. It’s up to the reader to make that decision on his or her own whether it matters or not to them. Do I hope it matters, if I said no I would be lying, but that is a whole other point concerning my ego and frankly I don’t need the stroking.

Tricia…We all have the right to our opinions and I totally respect yours. I disagree, but I still respect it. Thanks for the debate! It actually helps sharpen me: to get out of just my own head, widen my perspective and to know where other people are coming from, so thank you

Yours truly….No worries at all.

Tricia
Reply to  Jess
12 years ago

Just FYI… the reason I found this website is because I am doing a research argument paper for class and have to argue both sides of a controversial issue. So, your responses and perspective are helping me greatly. Thanks!

I respect you Jess, you don’t hold back…not trying to stroke your ego…lol! 🙂

Just want everyone who is reading to know that. Minus all of the swearing, this is good stuff!

lazersedge
12 years ago

Ms Tricia up there was trying her best to have it both ways which is what most religious people do. Until those of the religious faiths stand up against their own hypocrisy they will never be whole. Because of the inherent contradictions with their faith and its teachings from the old testament to the new they cannot really determine who they really are. If they are Christians there should never be a violent word utter from their lips lest they defame the one they worship. It is a pitiful site to see people follow national leaders who pretend to be one thing but are in reality another. Christians close their eyes to the wrong doing of their while they defile those who do not believe as they do. If their God exists he is most likely so ashamed of those who worship him he will indeed turn his back upon them and leave them to suffer the misery they created for themselves.

Tricia
Reply to  lazersedge
12 years ago

Lazersedge…I’m sure since you have the deepest relationship with God, you can speak for Him and have VAST knowledge of Him, right? Oh wait…my bad. I think your view of Christians is a little skewed and until you have studied it, Old and New Testaments and can speak intelligently about them, you don’t really have a valid argument, do you? Can you see it from both perspectives or are you so angry at “religion” that your anger makes you somewhat ignorant of ours?

I actually feel bad that you don’t understand the meaning of our relationship that we have with a “LOVING” God. Who loved us all, believer or not, and who paid the penalty for sins once and for all time. Yes, continually unless you personally know of a PERFECT human being. We all fall short of PERFECT so we need forgiveness from mistakes. There is where you feel our hypocrisy lies and guess what, we are human (not superhuman, definitely NOT perfect…just human) like you. Like I stated in my first comment, our belief or religion is not the absence of responsibility, it is the absence of condemnation and guilt. Do I feel bad when I do something wrong? Of course, and I am fully responsible for my actions, but I don’t make that part of my identity. I used to carry that old suitcase around and it did nothing for me except weigh me down, now that suitcase is unpacked, dirty laundry is cleaned and I have PEACE. A peace that was incomprehensible until I actually received it. But I am just speaking from MY PERSPECTIVE and MY EXPERIENCE. You have the right to speak yours.

12 years ago

“Most Christians attempt to “convert” everyone with whom they come in contact” Really? I know of far to many closeted Christians who abide by a principle of “keep it to yourself” Christianity. Can you quantify “most”? Mormons frequently knocking at your door? (hint: mormons aren’t Christians)

“Also, it should be noted, the Bible explicitly denies anyone who follows Christian beliefs to associate with atheists.” Where in the Bible do you get that from? Believers are physically present in the world — but not of it, not part of its values (John 17:14-15) but there’s no command to avoid associating with non-believers – that’s most of what Jesus did in his earthly ministry! I’ve been a Christians for several decades and some of my best friends are fundie athies. Am I doing something wrong?

For what it’s worth, though, as a Christian, I also believe in separation of church and state, for the simple reason that in Matt. 22:15-22 that Jesus himself draws a clear distinction between church and state and a believer’s obligations thereto. My highest obligation is to Christ’s kingdom, while at the same time, being obedient to the civil magistrate, even if I’m not fond of the guy running the state at the moment.

frankstwin
Reply to  Professor Mike
12 years ago

Amen.

Reply to  Professor Mike
14 years ago

MIKE – I knew John was a baptizer, i was just kidding about the rest of the names, were you thinking about Salome the dancer.

14 years ago

Holte: Well, John was called John the Baptist, wasn’t he? No doubt he was a member of the Souther Baptist Convention and spoke English, just like Jesus.

Mad Mike: There are Protestant sects which believe the Catholic Church is literally the work of Satan (I have a collection of Chick tracts which would make your hair stand on end). Such people would probably be hardly more tolerant of you than of me.

Four Dinners: I think you have the sitution well figured out. I’ve long felt that Britain today is a bit like the US in the 1980s — there is a lot of smouldering discontent about issues like this, but political correctness inhibits people from talking about it. Well, the political correctness eventually broke down here, and it will break down there.

If you’ve read the Koran, you know it’s a lot more coherent and less ambiguous than the Bible and leaves a lot less wiggle room to fudge things and claim to be tolerant while still being a good religious person. Moderate Islam will always be an unstable phenomenon because when moderate Muslims read the Koran it’s right there in black and white that the bin Laden and Taliban types, not the moderates, are representing what Islam truly is. (The same is true of Christianity really — it’s just a lot less obvious from the sacred writings).

I think in the end it will just die out.

In the meantime, I don’t have anything against religious people so long as they don’t try to push it on me or other people — by, for example, trying to introduce religion into politics.

Reply to  Infidel753
14 years ago

INFIDEL – You are right about John The Baptist, after all he wasn’t called John The Methodist, John The Catholic or John The Scientologist.

14 years ago

Oso, I am glad to know that you are still a Christan and that Sky was one. My son is a major league Christian and I respect that. I still apply the remnants of the political and economic Rational Man Analysis to this debate with me being the Rational Man. If a person truly believes his/her faith, then anything different is wrong. But, the Christian thing to do is to accept their short comings. Sitting on the sideline and conducting the analysis’s in an objective way. Right now no one has a clear lead.

14 years ago

Glad some have brought up regular, not fanantical, Christians. I appreciate them. Hell, I used to be one of them (of the Methodist persuasion). I just don’t see that many living where I do (near the world headquarters of the Assembly of God). When I do find these people, they are the 1% I referred to who do not have their politics and religion too tightly bound all the time.

Bee
14 years ago

Know what I tell people who want to say “this is a christian country”? I say: “ok, which christianity?”

I get blank stares. Fact: There are numerous denominations of protestantism alone, and not a single one can get along with another.

So, ok, they want this to be a christian nation. Fine. Shall it be Southern Baptist? Oh, no, they’re much too strict. Ok, how about Methodist? Oh, no, they’re not strict enough. Ok, how about evangelical? Oh, no, they’re batty and play with snakes. Ok, then, how about presbyterian? Oh, no, they’re much too papist. Ok, how about…Oh No…Ok, how about….Oh No, etc ad nauseum.

That’s the part they don’t get, or don’t want to admit – that at the end of the day, even the wording of the 10 commandments would be cause for bitter dispute, and soon enough a bloodbath would erupt.

Reply to  Professor Mike
14 years ago

Roman Catholics can probably build a convincing argument that their lineage goes back to the origins of Christianity, approximately 2000 years. Baptist on the other hand emerged about 1600-ish, but I have spoken to Southern Baptists who swear there were Baptists at the foot of the Cross and witnessed the crucifixion of Christ? Ba’al help us.

14 years ago

here? oh dear…I might make sense when I’m pissed but I certainly can’t spell!…;-)

14 years ago

Infidel /Holte : If what you say is true it will be a VERY big blessing. Most Brits tend to judge from their own places. The towns they live in. I’m, probably, not in a town where judging these things is an easy task. Southall next door is no longer, and hasn’t been for many years, an English town – not a racist comment by the way. The Spanish are also getting pissed off with certain Brits who seem to have created Brit enclaves in Spain – quite right too in my opinion.

If I settled in another country I would A) Respect their ways and B) Do my best to fit in and learn the language.

I consider anything less to be ignorance and to deserve treatment accordingly.

The Asians of Southall did precisely what the Brits in Spain have done. It’s human nature. Safety in numbers.

Next door Hayes Town however is, currently, a wee bit different.

We have an inordinant amount of African muslims who have appeared over the last 5 years or so. Primarily Somalian or similar.

The Asians HATE them with a vengeance. The whites? We’re relatively ok apart from full face burkhas which, frankly, should be made illegal. They have no religious significance at all and are purely used for subjugating women. (The suspicion is a few women are wearing them as a wind up…I think that is likely too)

Ultimately, Islam IS a dangerous religion. I’ve read The Koran. (A translation I hasten to add) – Regardless of how you interpret it, it is perfectly clear that Islam has no place in the world for any other religion but Islam.

Now ‘moderate’ / ‘ordinary’ muslims will not use violence to achieve this aim but the minority of nutters will.

Ultimately, even if we defeat ‘the nutters’ how do we defeat the ‘moderate’ and ‘ordinary’ as indeed we must. Eventually. Perhaps not in my lifetime, but eventually.

The birth rate may be leveling out (not in Hayes Town it isn’t…I can promise that) but, whilst other religions…Buddhism, Judaism, Christian Scientists, Catholicism…accept that they have NO part to play in the governance of any country, Islam IS a way of life and will never kow tow to any other ‘way of life’.

I wholeheartedly agree that there are ‘Islamophobes’ in Britain. Of course there are. It IS a ‘frightening’ religion to the west. I am NOT an Islamophobe personally. I campaigned hard for a ‘prayer room’ as a union rep at Heathrow for my muslim members – many of whoem I have remained in touch with and friendly with since I left – on the grounds that the ‘locker room’ was hardly appropriate.

What IS missing in the debate over Islam and the West is common sense and an inate fear by western politicians – certainly in the UK – to acknowledge publically and, indeed state publically, that Islam must adapt to the UK and not vice versa.

That is all sane people want to hear.

The question is, should any political party over here have the balls to say what the people want to here, what response would we then here from Islam?

I do apologise for virtually posting in your comments Mike, but I so so want some honest and open debate in this country.

Currently there is none – and comments like mine would immediately tar me as racist and Islamophobic – which, frankly, upsets me enormously.

I spent an hour today having a cup of tea with an old work colleague called Mohammed Noor. We had a really nice ‘good to see you again’ chat.

I just wish someone in the public eye would say “ENOUGH”

Islam is welcome in the UK as long as Islam follows our ways.

You do / can you stay and welcome.

You don’t / can’t you’re leaving.

It’s not really rocket science is it?

Reply to  fourdinners
14 years ago

Mr. DINNERS – Well put.

osori
14 years ago

Mike,
Great post, needs to be said again and again to counter the kind of intolerance exhibited by so many Christians.

I should point out I’m a practicing Christian (guess I haven’t got it right yet,so I practice)so my view is from a possibly different perspective but I see nothing offensive in your post, in fact I agree with all of it.

What does sadden me is the way so many twisted fundamentalists of all faiths warp what can be beautiful teachings, either as part of an agenda or more often out of narrow minded bigotry.

14 years ago

I get religious-based emails at my place for work, damn it. Me, and people like me, are considered odd because we didn’t want religious music playing earlier this year at an event at our children’s public school. I live in a part of the country where I am totally surrounded by fanatics, and they think I’m weird. And these people are all very polticially active, and their politics, for 99% of them, are tied to nothing but their religion. To discuss religion and politics with these people is one and the same.

Tom
14 years ago

To say that one religious ideology should be forced on all people, is insane. To use violence to ensure that religious rule over all people, is religious terrorism.
The Crusades are a good example of religious terrorism. Bombing abortion clinics, killing abortion doctors, is religious terrorism. Forcing Native Americans to worship the God of the King James Bible, was religious terrorism.
If a religious group’s goal, or platform, is to force their religion on all people (whether they use violence or not) they are religious terrorists.
The religious right in America, has terrorized America and Americans. They had (still have) a planned attack against the government of the United States.

To say that any one political ideology should rule all people, is insane. To use violence to instill any political ideology over people, is political terrorism.
A good example of political terrorism, is what Stalin did in Russia. Hitler, by military force, enforced his political ideology over the people’s he conquered.
Trying to force (whether violence is used or not) Democracy on all people’s of the World, is political terrorism.
It’s not a matter of whether good intentioned people think one political ideology is better than another; to force their ideology over other people, is political terrorism.
I consider the Republic we have in America a far superior form of governing people, than say the form of government that Iraq had; but, we offensively invaded and have now forced Democracy (questionable) on Iraq, at the point of a gun.
The Iraqi people spoke long ago; thanks America for getting rid of Saddam, now please leave. We did not leave, but we picked their leader, formed their Constitution, and demanded basic treatment of their people no matter who, or what kind of government they (freely?) elect.
Having forced all of this on the Iraqi people, is it not terrorism just because we believe it to be better, than what they had before? It’s obvious that an American type Democracy does not fit for the Iraqi people. Iraqi people want to vote, but they will not vote for an American type of Democracy.
Decades ago, America ousted Iran’s freely elected leader, because we decided he was anti American. Was that political terrorism? Was that the cause of our problems with Iran?

I’m just ranting. Delete this if you want, but I wanted to point out that forcing people to live under any religious, or political ideologies they do not want, is not natural for them, or does not fit them, is terrorism.

14 years ago

Mike, I would cavil on one point. I don’t think racism is the main driving force of the far-right radicalism we’re seeing. That factor is certainly their but the main driving force really is religion.

The American left is overwhelmingly secular and has a lot of trouble understanding religion and the religious mentality. Confronted with a religious phenomenon, it tries to re-interpret that phenomenon in terms of something else which is more familiar — taking religion not as the actual motivator but as a cover for something else.

This is why, for example, most American leftists don’t understand Islamic terrorism — they think in terms of historic grievances, colonialism, Israel, and so forth, and can’t grasp or can’t believe that the real roots of the problem lie in Islamic religious doctrines (as the American atheist Sam Harris has pointed out, American fundamentalists ironically understand the jihadists better than American leftists do, because their ways of thinking are more similar). In the same way, leftists tend to re-interpret the Christian Right in terms of things like racism or economic factors, which are more familiar and which they’re more comfortable talking about.

Racism is certainly there, but if Obama were white, I think we’d still be seeing basically the same problem.

14 years ago

Good post.

Four Dinners and Holte Ender, I have been following the issue of Islam in western Europe closely for quite some time. I think the danger is actually receding — see this post, which has links to more info on the subject. The birth rates of Muslim populations in Europe are coming into line with those of the natives, and many are becoming culturally assimilated. The hard-liners are a shrinking minority. They may well become more violent and dangerous as this process continues, but the risk that they could actually become dominant seems to have passed.

A similar process is happening in the US. The figure of 88% for self-proclaimed US Christians was probably true as recently as a decade ago, but atheists and agnostics are now 15% of the population (the number has doubled since 2000) and are the fastest-growing “religious” category. The Christian Right is shrinking, but becoming more radical and dangerous as it sees the prospect of taking over slipping from its grasp. The 2006 and 2008 elections were a turning point, when the party dominated by the Christian Right lost power to the much more secular Democrats (note that “secular” doesn’t necessarily mean atheist).

I expect to see a rising wave of Christian terrorism in the US over the next few years — reaching to actions worse than Oklahoma City and possibly worse than 9/11 — but I no longer worry that they will succeed in taking over.

There are other battlegrounds in this struggle, of course. Abortion, gay rights, infiltrating lies about evolution and US history into school textbooks (there was an earlier post here about that) — all these things are battlefields in the struggle against encroaching religious domination of the secular state’s laws and institutions.

Reply to  Infidel753
14 years ago

INFIDEL – Interesting you cite falling birth rates, I find that encouraging and perhaps it will allay the fears of the whites in the UK and France (if they want to believe it) who project an image of their countries swarming with Muslims that want to take over the government. The French and British cultures are both capable of genius and sadly both capable of ignorance too and like here in the USA, bigotry and intolerance speak with a loud voice.

14 years ago

Mike, my friend and Don Quixote fellow traveler, we must apply the age old “Rational Man” theory here to understand this phenomenon. This is because those of religious faith have left rationality out of their lives. Religious deities had absorb the minds of most people of most cultures long before this country was ever thought to exist. Even the Native Americans looked to various Gods to explain why things happened. A rational thought would conclude that if one truly believes in ones religion all other beliefs, by default, are wrong. Those who are wrong must be either converted or eliminated in order to have the perfect world that their God wishes to have. I know, it is a bit “stepford” like but it is so. While there does seem to be a few faiths that do not call for conquering the world population (Bahia’ for example) they are not the most prominent. So, those of us who are rational beings must accept the fact that the true believers are simply behaving the way we should expect them to behave. All knowing, all seeing, and all goodness. Even those who do not necessarily always follow all the rules of the faith are behaving normally by pushing their agenda. Remember, they can pray and be forgiven for their sins. We can’t, we have to take responsibility for our behavior because we have no specific entity to whom we can hand our missteps.
As I have often posted on MMA, I fully believe that it has to be idiots and/or fools who think that a mere mortal could possibly have any concept whatsoever of what God could be, or think, or believe, or want, should their actually be such a deity. I for one am uncertain, and I think I am at least as smart as the average yo yo who is certain. The difference the average yo yo is placing his/her faith in traditions/folklore/stories/and speculations of people who, for one reason or another, had a vested interest in controlling peoples minds and behavior.

Tricia
Reply to  Lazersedge
12 years ago

Then I guess you have all the wisdom, knowledge and understanding of the universe, eh? Just try this for kicks…So if you were to take your arms and round them together at the fingertips like you are hugging a bear or something, and let’s just say that within that circle of your arms existes all the wisdom, knowledge and understanding of the ENTIRE universe. How much of that space do you think your wisdom, knowledge and understanding would take up? I would say for me, that maybe a pin dot of that space would be my wisdom, knowledge and understanding. Maybe yours is a few gages larger than mine, I don’t know. But here is my question: don’t you think that a higher being, like God, could exist outside of your level of wisdom, knowledge and understanding of Him? Just saying. I would rather live my life as if there is a God only to find out later that there isn’t, than to live my life as if there is no God and to find out later there is. To believe that there is no being that could have created a tiny any that is so intricately put together then look at the beauty that is in this world and to vastness of the universe. Sure this all could have happened by chance, but what if it didn’t.

Religion is not the problem; it’s people who have no idea about it or have been burned by people in it. Which brings me to my next point: I’m sure you are perfect and you’ve never made a bad choice or made a mistake, right? That is the very thing that makes us human, we all make mistakes. Religion is not the absence of responsibility; it is simply the absence of condemnation and guilt from mistakes. Those mistakes happen pretty regularly in my life. We all need compassion and forgiveness for our mistakes. Someone to cut us a break, right?
Here is a common misconception among atheistic mind-set, religious people in America do not want a theocracy which is what I believe most atheists think that we want. No, we live in America, a democratic republic. We want the freedom OF religion, not the freedom FROM religion. We all have a say and that is the beauty of America. As Americans we have the right to say these things; however, there is a difference in taking out our cultural heritage so you people won’t get offended. That sounds surprisingly religious to me. Hmm, now where have I heard of this before? Oh yeah, in Afghanistan when the Taliban took tank and artillery fire to 2,000 year old Buddhist statues that were carved into the mountains. Way to preserve the history of Afghanistan. It sounds to me as if the atheists are a lot like the Taliban. I will restate this again, Christians do not want a theocracy, just look at the extremism and terror that it has caused! No, we just want our right to worship as the 1st Amendment of The United States Constitution gives us. Simply.

Jess
Reply to  Tricia
12 years ago

“…Here is a common misconception among atheistic mind-set, religious people in America do not want a theocracy which is what I believe most atheists think that we want. No, we live in America, a democratic republic. We want the freedom OF religion, not the freedom FROM religion… It sounds to me as if the atheists are a lot like the Taliban. I will restate this again, Christians do not want a theocracy, just look at the extremism and terror that it has caused! No, we just want our right to worship as the 1st Amendment of The United States Constitution gives us. Simply”

When laws get passed limiting choice for women, “teh gheyz” are an abomination if they get married and so on, by some of the most bigoted individuals to ever sully the planet, assisted by those religions leaders/followers.. yes you want religion ruling us. I call BULLSHIT on your talking points. I snipped from your saying no no we don’t want a theocracy and other stuff, yes that is in fact what you want but you all don’t want to admit it out loud, because you know it will get knocked back to the middle of next week by rational people. When religions can get out of bedrooms and my damn uterus then we can get to conversating about freedoms. Oh and let’s review the evidence that atheists are like the Taliban shall we, with the Xianists demanding we respect them and their beliefs but atheists like me are not worthy of that same respect and we should do what the religious people tell us to do, yeah so unlike the Taliban they really are not. BULLSHIT once again, is what it comes back to with you Christians and cries of help help we’re being oppressed. Makes me sick.

Tricia
Reply to  Jess
12 years ago

Wow, Jess, didn’t think the laws have changed to LIMIT choices for women. In fact, according to Wikipedia, “Abortion in the United States has been legal in every state since the United States Supreme Court decision in Roe v. Wade, on January 22, 1973.” So, it is NOT in fact, limited, is it? And I actually don’t have a problem with gays. I’m not here to judge anyone, whatever people are is whatever they CHOOSE to be. If you CHOOSE to have an abortion or CHOOSE to cheat on your spouse, or CHOOSE to, I don’t know, pick your nose and eat it, those are all your choices.

****I am speaking from my own personal convictions here and I CHOOSE to live this way, since I believe that God is the highest power, creator of all, then who am I to replace God’s authority or power to judge someone. That is up to Him. People CHOOSE to live and abide in Him or not to: that is up to the individual. However, I (emphasis on “I”…I’m not generalizing,not trying to push my agenda on you this is strictly how I feel) feel as though, if there is nothing higher than myself, then I become the most self-centered person and act solely on that self-centered attitude. I used to be selfish to the millionth degree, so for me this is factual…I could measure my level of misery about life against my level of selfishness; they were coupled, paralleled, equal. Now, not so much since I started taking my relationship with God seriously. Again, this is solely MY PERSPECTIVE and it is hard to argue a changed life, I know what I was and what I am now.

But, I’m not here to “force” anyone to believe what I do. I think that is impossible as we are products of CHOICES. I just think that it is a sad thing that atheists are so offended by religion that they want to destroy our cultural heritage by taking things that were founded on Christianity out of everything. Where will it stop? Will murdering someone become legal or be taken out of the Constitution because it is one of the Ten Commandments? It’s really ridiculous! I will restate what I said in my last comment, we want the Freedom OF Religion, not the Freedom FROM Religion.

Jess
Reply to  Tricia
12 years ago

You must not watch very much by way of news, if you don’t know Michigan, Ohio, Florida, North Dakota, Kansas and other states are taking up the cause of the righteous to ban abortions and in Ohio specifically they have a heartbeat law in place, whereby abortion can not be done when a heartbeat is detected. Yeah, it might be on the face of it legal, but the tamborine bangers for Jesus are taking that away too and there is no denying it, when clinics are closing down all over the place. Too much by way of facts though, gets in the way of god is great and god is good if you are a fetus.

As an atheist myself, I am not in the least offended by something I have no belief in. What offends me, is the righteous telling me, things that are not true. Example you just gave, this country was founded on Christianity. Unless you follow David Barton’s(look him up) logic and not facts, no this country was not founded on any religious bent. You have and will always have your freedom of religion, whatever day you bend the knee to whichever god suits you. No one has taken that away from any of you, NOT ONE person, although some of the religious would make sure the rest of us bend the knee to that same god but only if it’s the Christian one because he’s the best one, that some of us don’t believe in. No you are not being oppressed as Christians, in fact it is the entire opposite, so try not to push the martyr thing too hard, some of us..well me.. don’t appreciate it.

Tricia
Reply to  Jess
12 years ago

I must ask if you live in one of the above mentioned states? If so, I’m sorry, I thought we had the right to vote in this country and if these states vote for or against and issue, it’s because the majority of the people living in those states believe that issue is right or wrong.

I apologize for my use of words. I will retract only to add a word, this country was founded on Christian VALUES. So when is honoring your mother and father, not committing murder, not commit adultery, not stealing, not lying or giving false testimony, and not covet your neighbor’s possessions so wrong? These are part of the Ten Commandments and please tell me which one is wrong to do? If those things are offensive, then I’m sorry but these absolutes have transcended time; even when written many centuries ago they are still very much applicable today. That is not “playing a martyr” or pushing our agenda it is simply maintaining a standard of morals and ethics.

Jess
Reply to  Tricia
12 years ago

If you (generic) need a holy writ to say that being kind to another person, not harming another living creature and so on is what should be done, that says more about you(generic) than it does anything else. A person does not have to know about or follow these rules in order to be a moral and ethical person. I do it everyday, as do others just like me.

Tricia
Reply to  Jess
12 years ago

Oh Jess, honey, those are just the baseline (generic)cores of our belief, there is much more to it, but since you brought it up when you said…”not harming another living creature and so on is what should be done…A person does not have to know about or follow these rules in order to be a moral and ethical person. I do it everyday, as do others just like me.”

Let me ask it this way…Let’s say a close female relative of yours, let’s say your sister or maybe even your best friend has always wanted kids and has tried and tried and tried but to no avail. Then miraculously after years of trying finds out after going to the fertility doctor after work one day that she is finally pregnant. She calls you to tell you the good news and is absolutely ecstatic, crying tears of joy. Gets off the phone with you and leaves the office and starts heading toward her car. Since there was no parking nearby the office, she parked in an alley. She is walking to her car takes her keys out to unlock her car then all of a sudden, she gets mugged, shot and killed in the alley by a robber. Now, do you think the killer should be tried for double homicide/two counts of murder?

Jess
Reply to  Tricia
12 years ago

Well one, I am an only child so if I find out about a sister or brother for that matter, I would be talking to pictures of my parents asking them wtf, why did you not tell me before you died. Best friend is a gay man and I really don’t see him having children anytime soon. As far as charges of murder for a mugging taken to that extreme, regardless of how happy that person would be or how happy I am for them, it would be one killing unless the laws of that location state otherwise. My personal opinion about that should never be taken into account because unlike forced birthers, who think life begins when sperm hits the vaginal canal, I don’t need my personal views used to punish someone else.

Tricia
Reply to  Jess
12 years ago

First of all, I’m sorry about your parents. My father died when I was way too young so I can relate. It’s been a tough road. I am not an only child and, in fact, I have many nieces and nephews, so I think otherwise about the double murder. For me my question hits a little closer to home than for you, so now I have an understanding of why you feel that way. It is what we experience in life that shapes our opinions, so we are just going to have to agree to disagree on some issues.

And about not injecting your personal opinion, isn’t that what our justice system is about, isn’t that what this comment section has been about? People have different perspectives about issues, otherwise, there would only be one person in a jury instead of twelve. And if your opinion doesn’t matter, then why leave comments here? We all have the right to our opinions and I totally respect yours. I disagree, but I still respect it. Thanks for the debate! It actually helps sharpen me: to get out of just my own head, widen my perspective and to know where other people are coming from, so thank you! 🙂

14 years ago

Religious nutters are religious nutters no matter what faith they cling to. The Muslim population of Britain is 2.7% of the population and in France 6% HERE. They are heard because they are vocal, for the most part they live in the poorest, post-industrial towns and the most run down areas of big cities, they are breeding faster than the white population and that scares the natives into believing some next week they will be the minority in their own country. Having active Muslim jihadists living in your midst can be a little disconcerting and I am sure it’s happening in the UK and France, but they are just a bunch of criminal, religious nutters who are threatening everybody’s freedom and should be treated as such. The religious nutjobs in the USA number in the 10s of millions, they worry me because of their significant numbers and they live everywhere, rich and poor neighborhoods in every State. To get to the point of your post, separation of Church and State is paramount to freedom, take that away, we would be living in a very oppressive society.

Reply to  Professor Mike
14 years ago

They have enough followers world wide to accomplish the goal…. however; the majority of today’s Muslims actually do NOT want to live in a society that is under theocracy. Many prefer the free societies of western Europe and N. America. Its true. 🙂

14 years ago

God is an America?…mmmm…I feel a post coming on….

You think seperating church and state is important I’d advise you never to live in an Islamic country.

That’s their plans for the UK you know…ultimately. Not scare mongering. It’s perfectly clear and admitted by most muslims over here. A muslim Labour MP and Minister went as far as to publically state he can’t wait for the day when ‘Someone who shares my faith is in Number 10’

oh dear….

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